I believe in both evolution and creation, as it it dumb to believe God couldn't know what things would and could have evolved into when he is Omnipotent.
I believe in both evolution and creation, as it it dumb to believe God couldn't know what things would and could have evolved into when he is Omnipotent.
God is the "author" - everything in there was inspired by Him. Because God is all-powerful, there's a slight chance that He has the ability to inspire good men to guard the integrity of His revelation of His identity. Easy for a Guy who created the world in six days, don't you think?Originally Posted by hyperborean
1) This argument also works against any conclusions you draw from scientists who assert the truth of evolution - they're biased too.
2) Biblical scholars use tools that are acknowledged in the secular community as well. Here:
Homer's Illiad is considered to have the greatest manuscript authority next to the New Testament; Homer wrote the Illiad around 900 BC and the oldest copy is from 400 BC - a 500 year span. The total number of manuscripts is 643 and the readings agree 95% of the time.
In contrast, there are approximately 5300 original language manuscripts of New Testament writings spanning 50 years - AD 70 to AD 120. These documents agree with each other 99.5% of the time in terms of language and content. It requires no bias to come to this kind of linguistic conclusion - you simply compare what all the manuscripts say.
God didn't "make" people write the Bible - He inspired willing believers to put down what He wanted put down. "Influence" is not "coerce." These writers wanted to be servants - "tools" if you will - of God; allowing Him to pass His thoughts through us is an honor - not a violation of our freedom. Your understanding of freewill in this situation is incorrect.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
Does a secretary lose her/his free will when (s)he dictates a letter for her/his boss? Inspiration and slavery aren't the same thing.
Last edited by Adudaewen; 03-19-2007 at 01:01 AM.
"Who are a little wise
the best fools be." John Donne
If a drop of water falls in lake there is no identity. But if it falls on a leaf of lotus it shine like a pearl. so choose the best place where you would shine..
actually physics does not assert this. science does not know where it matter came from. but there are some theories you can check out. some of the stuff is really bizarre.
It does seem crazy to the Christian to assert that something came out of nothing - which is what evolution (sans God) must finally assert. Matter cannot come from nothing. Pursued to its logical conclusion, evolution must explain the existence of matter. To say that it has "always existed" is to give an answer that really answers nothing because it asserts a reality that cannot be explained, nor can it be proven (kind of like God -).
<It does seem crazy to the Christian to assert that something came out of nothing>
And yet, it doesn't seem crazy to assert that something, a causeless something, was always there?
From what I remember of reading books on the big bang, I always thought that the claim was that time began with the big bang, and that the question of what happened before is therefore a meaningless question. To say that it is claimed that nothing preceded the big bang is incorrect, afaik, as it is said that a field of potential preceded the big bang.
Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain
The preachers deal with men of straw, as they are men of straw themselves - Henry David Thoreau
The way to see faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamin Franklin
The teaching of the church, theoretically astute, is a lie in practice and a compound of vulgar superstitions and sorcery - Leo Tolstoy
But absolute freewill is lost. Divine inspiration...God inspiring particular men in order to carry out his will and write his book is loss of freewill. The men who were inspired by God to write the bible did not have total control over their actions.
Last edited by hyperborean; 03-19-2007 at 01:39 PM.
Yes they did: to willingly chose to follow another's request is a voluntary placing of one's own will under the authority of another - as such, it is FREELY chosen; for every man/woman who chose to serve God, I suggest that many others declined the invitation. God generally doesn't ask for unwilling servants. (The story of Johah is a bit troubling, but I think there's a reason for that too.)
But science must assert this in order for its God-less view of evolution to work. Matter exists, and it cannot be conveniently explained away (at least by rational people).
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
it doesnt have to. science does not claim to have all the answers. it might decide on a theory or it might not. evolution isnt bothered with matter anyway. it describes how life evolves and grows.
No, I'm talking about the people that filtered, edited, and changed the bible according to their liking; the politicians in ancient times (like Constantine) who changed the bible into what it is today. You claimed earlier that God inspired those men. I don't remember guys like Constantine having actual conversations with God about writing the bible. You did say they were "inspired to write and edit", and all this talk of alterations is "silly" because mr. ruler of the universe has everything planned out. Well if most of the guys that wrote the bible never had conversations with God (like moses did) then it's not freewill to abide by God's wishes (because God never actually said anything to them).
The impression you gave off was that even if the writers weren't told to write the bible by God, they were spiritually inspired to do so without knowing they were spiritually inspired. That wouldn't be freewill, now would it?
Last edited by hyperborean; 03-19-2007 at 05:43 PM.
God has always had loyal servants - and He has entrusted them to guard His Word. Any being capable of creating the universe could assure that His Holy Word made it through various translators and editors intact. In general, people who translated/copied the scriptures did so out of a sense of service to the Lord: people hostile to the scriptures were not interested in working with them. You ignored my posting with the percentages of reliabilty attributed to the New Testament (I can provide similar figures for the Old Testament). Based on the tools used to assess the reliabilty of ancient writings, the New Testament has the highest reliability in terms of the texts agreeing with each other.
It has to bother with matter because the elimination of God from the explanation of the universe necessitates an explanation as to where matter came from. And science will probably have to resort to an explanation as silly and inconceivable to the Christian as the idea of a Supreme Being must be to them.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
You laugh when evolutionists bring up statistics, yet you post statistics on the validity of the bible. I've read and seen too much to believe that the bible is as valid as you claim.
At this point of the argument it's pretty pointless to continue. No matter what direction you go in, a Christian will use his faith to tackle a debate. It goes like this:
evolutionist: scientific fact
creationist: science can't be trusted
evolutionist: yes it can
creationist: straw man
evolutionist: attack on christianity
creationist: faith, God is almighty, I win.
You laugh when evolutionists bring up statistics, yet you post statistics on the validity of the bible. I've read and seen too much to believe that the bible is as valid as you claim.
At this point of the argument it's pretty pointless to continue. No matter what direction you go in, a Christian will use his faith to tackle a debate. It goes like this:
evolutionist: scientific fact
creationist: science can't be trusted
evolutionist: yes it can
creationist: straw man
evolutionist: attack on christianity
creationist: faith, God is almighty, I win.
Nobody has quoted scientific statistics for me that I can recall. Why don't you hunt down all the times someone (you maybe?) has tried to offer statistics and I've "laughed" at them, OK?
Second - you ignored my information. You and the other evolutionists manage to scoff away at "faith" saying that we have no empirical evidence, and then when I offer you something you won't deal with it. Nice. Deal with my postings. Those numbers aren't my claims - they are from studies done on textual reliability.
Third: how many times are you going to claim that the argument is pointless to continue in and then keep right on posting away? If you're done, fine: be done and let someone else take your place who will do more than argue in a circle without dealing with the argument at hand.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
Interesting poll.
I'm guessing by the almost 50% seeing creation that most posters are from USA? Amazing how many people have trouble separating fact (evolution) from fantasy (creation).
As an atheist, I have no problem with religion - live and let live is my motto - but creationism flies in the face of too many facts to be treated seriously.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
I'll remember never to ask you to write anything down for me since you consider that such a violation of your free will.
To me, it is just silly to say that inspiration is the same as a loss of free will. Now, if God held a gun to their heads, then I might agree with you. But as far as I know God doesn't have a gun license.(doesn't really need one)
"Who are a little wise
the best fools be." John Donne
If a drop of water falls in lake there is no identity. But if it falls on a leaf of lotus it shine like a pearl. so choose the best place where you would shine..
Howdy Adu,I'll remember never to ask you to write anything down for me since you consider that such a violation of your free will.
To me, it is just silly to say that inspiration is the same as a loss of free will. Now, if God held a gun to their heads, then I might agree with you. But as far as I know God doesn't have a gun license.
Your last sentence, particularly the part in parentheses, proves hyper's point in my opinion. Why use a gun when you're omnipotent, omnicient, and eternal? Didn't the Christian god know it was going to eventually have to send its human form to earth to get nailed to the cross--even before it created the world?
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