Atheists....

[kilted exile]

I think using WW2 as a "religious war" is tenuous at best. Even if you do subscribe to the opinion that Hitler was christian (albeit misguided) it ignores the other major factors behind the war (desire to create German supremacy in europe, hatred for the effects/consequences of the Verseille treaty, feeling of betrayal by German leaders from previous years)

I think possibly the best example of a post rennaissance religiously inspired conflict would be the conquest of Britain/Ireland by William of Orange

[Stanislaw]

One thing people tend to either don't know or deliberatly forget, is that Adolf Hitler was quite a devout Christian. One of the many theories that abound about why he did what he did to the Jews is because of a mis-construed interpritation of the Christian bible. Taking this view, WW2 was as relgious as it was anything else. Is that post-Renaissance enough for you?

Now, this is my first post here on these boards, and this is the first thread I have read, and went out of my way to join up so I can comment on it. Mind you, I have not read every single 600 odd replies.

I am in the bundle of people are classified as athiest. I find that Athiest is a name used for these people because the names like "Christian" or "Hindu" Or "Jew" or what ever don't convieniantly fit. Alot of Athiests have Faith, it is that they do not have Religion.

Beleif and Faith are very powerful things. Since it is very rare for a person to follow more than one religion at a time, this can make an interesting condry. Relgion "A" beleive that followers of Religion "B" will go to hell for not following Relgion "A". The opposite is also can be said. Since followers of both religions truely beleive the others will go to hell, then everyone will, because of that beleif.

If you think that is a load of Rubbish, that logic more opr less follows all the arguements I have ever been given that God exists.

When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up.

Adolf was not a devout christian, and most of his antisemitism came from his childhood, rejection, and popular anti semetic feelings in europe at the time. WWII was not driven by relegion, it was a secular war around economics, and power.

Athiest is described as an individual who does not believe in a god or gods...not as a follower of non-mainstream religion. If you believe in an almighty being...higher than humans...you are not athiest.

As for going to hell...well, theres some faulty logic in there... just because it is stated doesn't make it true, ie I say the sky is pink, and those who say its blue are dumb...and you say the sky is blue and those who say it is pink are dumb...whos right...or are we both dumb?

well, God exists, as I have seen it to date.. he exists because it can't be proven he doesn't just as he doesn't because it can't be proven he does...
I guess you just have to have faith that he does or doesn't exist.

"When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up"... well possibly, or that aspect is made up, if the debunking of God is because of a contradiction put forward by one guy...then, theres some issue in proofs there.

Now to clarify, I use the name God, as a describer for supreme deity, call it what you will...don't hate the player, hate the play.

[Matrim Cuathon]

no, more faith is required for religion. believing in nothing till it is proven to exist is the opposite of believing in everything till it is proven not to exist, not believing in one thing till its proven not to exist. there is only one science, there are thousands of religions. it is as likely that a higher being exists as it is that one doesnt. it as not as likely that a specific one exists.

[watkinsguy]

WW2 was a religious war? Cmon, wars are about one thing and one thing only, and that is power. You honestly think Hitler did what he did to Jews because of his "Christian" beliefs? I think it is more along the lines of his failure earlier in life which he perceived to be caused by Jews. You should look Hitler up, that would give you a much better perception of Hitler, or read his book Mein Kampf

[Stanislaw]

no, more faith is required for religion. believing in nothing till it is proven to exist is the opposite of believing in everything till it is proven not to exist, not believing in one thing till its proven not to exist. there is only one science, there are thousands of religions. it is as likely that a higher being exists as it is that one doesnt. it as not as likely that a specific one exists.

It seems to me a half empty half full argument, one side is pessimistic the other is optimistic. really, they require the same effort.

[Redzeppelin]

I can't respond to your post because then my post would be deleted (political influence would be the only way to analyze the situation). And by the way...a political debate against me is going to be much harder to win than a philosophical debate (this time it's not about opinion, but instead historical fact).

My argument would deal with Christianity and conservative politics in modern times. This would be your requested "modern example", and I shall hold me tongue (I already got demerits on this forum).

Sorry - I'm not buying it. Wars started by governments influenced by Christian principles (or simply Christian-dominant cultures) do not qualify in my book as "wars caused by Christianity." Politics mitigates this particular argument. I want wars specifically started and maintained (like the Crusades) based on religion - on who God is and what we're supposed to be doing as His servants. You will have - I believe - great difficulty in doing so.

"Win?" Was anybody winning our discussion? Here's an FYI: history is the record of what happened by other human beings - as such, it is prone to interpretation, distortion and a certain degree of subjectivity. Not all facts are irrefutably what you say they are; they may point in a number of directions at once. Maddening, this inability to nail reality down, huh?

[Matrim Cuathon]

just like the bible eh?

[Stanislaw]

as like science?

[watkinsguy]

lol this is funny to read

[Redzeppelin]

just like the bible eh?

Easily said; much more difficultly defended.

[Wintermute]

lol this is funny to read

I find it interesting, a little sad, and in some instances scary. But not funny.

The folks that are slamming creationists can not really come up with an alternate theory of what started it all.

And the science bashers have almost certainly never had the opportunity to investigate what science really is all about. My sister is a professor of neurobiology and I take great offence at the notion that she is somehow a liberal na'er-do-well who's primary goal is to debunk someone's religion. She goes into the lab before dawn, and usually doesn't return home until after 9pm. She works very hard to understand the human brain an how in functions in order to better our lot--for very little monetary compensation. You folks that summarily dismiss scientists as mean-spirited, close minded, ignorant, whatevers...need to examine a mirror. No scientist that I know of has ever claimed to know with certainty what is going on in the universe. They theorize, examine, then re-theorize.

[watkinsguy]

But isnt that what life is all about?

[hyperborean]

Sorry - I'm not buying it. Wars started by governments influenced by Christian principles (or simply Christian-dominant cultures) do not qualify in my book as "wars caused by Christianity." Politics mitigates this particular argument. I want wars specifically started and maintained (like the Crusades) based on religion - on who God is and what we're supposed to be doing as His servants. You will have - I believe - great difficulty in doing so.

"Win?" Was anybody winning our discussion? Here's an FYI: history is the record of what happened by other human beings - as such, it is prone to interpretation, distortion and a certain degree of subjectivity. Not all facts are irrefutably what you say they are; they may point in a number of directions at once. Maddening, this inability to nail reality down, huh?

Government documents have perfect enough interpretation for me. My knowledge doesn't come from a propaganda filled history textbook. Let's just say I have family that have worked for the government and have seen things you couldn't possibly imagine.

Anyways, It's not Christianity that's the problem; it's using Christianity to control the populace. The Nazis wore both the cross and the swastika on their uniform.

[Bookworm4Him]

That is a very blunt perception of Christianity I will give you that To answer the statement of why doesn't he just fast forward to the end of time since He knows who is going to choose what and where they are going to go, I ask you this: where is the fun in that? lol but really, I do believe that God likes too see us glorifying Him, as we are sentinent human beings that are making CHOICES to do His will, not being forced to like angels. Wouldn't you love your spouse more if they CHOSE to obey you rather than be FORCED to? just a thought

Thank you! lol How 'bout another example for our doubting companions here? hmmm...!!!! I know! Everybody loves American Idol, right? If not that, then there must be some sort of show like that that you watch. So would the many viewers want to just skip right to the end and see the winner?
Ok, how 'bout the NCAA coming up? (For those of it that watch it) Now that they have arranged the brackets, let's just let the number one seeds battle it out. You know what, we all know that Florida will win, so let's just name them the champs and go about our normal buisness without having to listen to the news page constantly.
(Just one more example, I really can't help it.) How many of ya'll have children? Are they little, just a few years old? Ok, let's just grow them up here and now. Forget their first steps, their first days of school, their little field trips, first day of high school, first car, school prom, graduation, choosing colleges, getting married, their first kid, and the list goes on. Why not just rush thru time and see where the're going to be buried. Forget their life, or that they were even born. In fact, let's just kill them in the womb. they aren't really Alive, are they?!? Is that what you want? No need your little girl who, looking up at you thru her big blue eyes and putting her little hand in your palm, plant a kiss on your cheek and give you a simple "I love you." If you are willing to give that up, then shame on you!
So you want to know why God doesn't just fast forward time and put us where we'll end up? As His children, He enjoys watching us, as we do our children.
Now, I'm sure ya'll are going to pick apart my arguement, so I'll just sit here til you do.

[Wandering_Child]

I was simply browsing and a specific post caught my eye.

those who live like animals..

JUST eat....drink.....play....

eat....drink.....play....


and sin for ever ...ignoring Hell..!

If you really mean that seriously I...I am at a loss for words.

This is why some people are atheists. They question their beliefs for a while and extremists end up shoving the Bible down their throats and telling them that they will go to Hell if they do not believe in God.

Now, I'm not an atheist. I am a practicing LDS member, but I do have respect enough for those who believe differently. It doesn't mean that Christians, Muslims, or whatever you are should shun them simply because they don't believe in a higher being. God told us to love everyone. And it should end right there.