God is Green

[Nightshade]

humm well Im not going to argue about what the bible says but the Koran is quite vocal about 'Fasad fee el ard" which quite literally translates as corruptioon of the earth, and we are told right at the end of the same verse that gives us dominion of the aerth , 'and do not corrupt ?pollute the earth for God does not love the corrupters. somthing like that Ill get the details of it later

[Virgil]

humm well Im not going to argue about what the bible says but the Koran is quite vocal about 'Fasad fee el ard" which quite literally translates as corruptioon of the earth, and we are told right at the end of the same verse that gives us dominion of the aerth , 'and do not corrupt ?pollute the earth for God does not love the corrupters. somthing like that Ill get the details of it later

I would like to see the details. I actually would be a little surprised. Most cultures going back in time did not have an environmental consciousness. That is something we currently read into it, a modern value being projected back. Like I said farming and herding are not natural acts and by their inherent nature alter the environment. Would you be against channelling water through a canal so farmers can water their crops? That is altering the environment. But what are desert people supposed to do? Starve? Across Europe one can see farm after farm as one travels. That used to be wilderness at one time. That environment has been radically changed. Modern European countries wouldn't be able to eat if they had not altered the environment. But are you looking at the entire Koran? Or just one passage?

[botkin]

I think one could distinguish between different forms of altering or tampering with nature. Does all manipulation of natural circumstance (such as channeling water for farms, or even the construction of farms where in the past were wild plants) amount to corruption or destruction of nature? Surely there is a point to which man can tamper or clear out the natural environment in which he finds himself without permanently damaging (or "corrupting") the whole.

[Virgil]

I think one could distinguish between different forms of altering or tampering with nature. Does all manipulation of natural circumstance (such as channeling water for farms, or even the construction of farms where in the past were wild plants) amount to corruption or destruction of nature? Surely there is a point to which man can tamper or clear out the natural environment in which he finds himself without permanently damaging (or "corrupting") the whole.

You mean like destroying whole miles and miles of forest for farmland? That is Europe today.

[Jetxa]

Scripture and science both affirm that plants and animals preceded man as tenants of earth. Science affirms that man showed up millions of years after plants and animals. Did something occur in this time frame that created a need for man and his “dominion” over the earth?

I am curious to the significance that man was fashioned out of the dust of the earth, yet all the rest of creation came to be by the "spoken word" of God . Does this somehow play into man's supposed “dominion”?

[Nightshade]

I would like to see the details. I actually would be a little surprised. Most cultures going back in time did not have an environmental consciousness. That is something we currently read into it, a modern value being projected back. Like I said farming and herding are not natural acts and by their inherent nature alter the environment. Would you be against channelling water through a canal so farmers can water their crops? That is altering the environment. But what are desert people supposed to do? Starve? Across Europe one can see farm after farm as one travels. That used to be wilderness at one time. That environment has been radically changed. Modern European countries wouldn't be able to eat if they had not altered the environment. But are you looking at the entire Koran? Or just one passage?

Well as I understand it the koran doesnt quite work the same way as the Bible but it is a theme that is repeated all over the place. From the verse of the creation of Adam to verse about the day of judgment , to just the general rules on how to live your life over and over again God created the heavnes and earth, all knowing all powerful, He created everything on earth for you to use so that you might think and acknowledge His Wonder and worship him. Do not corrupt or destroy His gifts for such is a regection of His love and Gifts and to reject the gifts of God is to reject God.
Thats the basic reccurring theme, and actually the same rule applies to why we caan not drink alchol or gamble, because their faults and dangerous and potetional harms to your self your body and others is greater then their potentional benfits.

[Adudaewen]

Nightshade, you solved a mystery for me!!! All this time, I had thought I read that verse in the Bible when it was in fact in the Qur'an. Thanx!

I'm not sure if I would classify farming and hearding quite the same as say, strip mining. After land is farmed and hearded, it can be "healed" in a sense. You mentioned Virgil that I was from Nebraska, and I have seen effect that irresponsible farming has on the land. However when its's done right, you can actually improve the land by farming on it. Herding can be rough, but grazing is probably one of the best ways to grow prairie grasses.

[Virgil]

[I'm not sure if I would classify farming and hearding quite the same as say, strip mining. After land is farmed and hearded, it can be "healed" in a sense. You mentioned Virgil that I was from Nebraska, and I have seen effect that irresponsible farming has on the land. However when its's done right, you can actually improve the land by farming on it. Herding can be rough, but grazing is probably one of the best ways to grow prairie grasses.

Oh, I didn't say ruin the land, I meant change it from what is natural. Farming alters the habitat for the native species, and look there aren't any wolves or bears except in remote areas of europe. And certainly the bird species change with terrain, and I'm sure insect and even micro-biology. Some of which prosper and some of which become extinct. Anyone that thinks we can keep something "natural" is wrong. Human activity changes the environment. I've seen environmentalist advocate eliminating humans off the earth.

Well as I understand it the koran doesnt quite work the same way as the Bible but it is a theme that is repeated all over the place. From the verse of the creation of Adam to verse about the day of judgment , to just the general rules on how to live your life over and over again God created the heavnes and earth, all knowing all powerful, He created everything on earth for you to use so that you might think and acknowledge His Wonder and worship him. Do not corrupt or destroy His gifts for such is a regection of His love and Gifts and to reject the gifts of God is to reject God.
Thats the basic reccurring theme, and actually the same rule applies to why we caan not drink alchol or gamble, because their faults and dangerous and potetional harms to your self your body and others is greater then their potentional benfits.

OK, I'll take your word for it. But in practice, what have Islamic nations done to preserve the environment? They have cities (how large and spread out is Cairo?) and build canals and create unnatural farmland out of natural desert and drive cars and drill for oil (oh my! naughty, naughty ) and sell lots of oil so the world can run and keep warm and have electricity. We, people of all faiths, all want to lead more comfortable, prosperous lives.

(Night please don't interpret that as an attack, I'm making my point with a little humor )

[one_raven]

As to the religious question that was brought up originally I cite this from Genesis. The underline is my emphasis.


That God has provided the earth for man's use is the traditional Judeo-Christian understanding of the earth.

Genesis also mandates that man be vegetarian.

And, of ocurse, Leviticus requires man to be Kosher - how many Kosher Christinas do you know?

What Jesus preached and what the Old Testament stated were often two different things, were they not?
Otherwise, is it also OK for a man to beat his wife?
Should someone be stoned to death for uttering the name of God?

What distinguishes man from the rest of the animals is his ability to drastically alter his environment intentionally on a rapid and wide scale. In the selfish this power instills a sense of arrogance and ownership of the world - in the wise, it instills a sense of awed humility and custodianship of the world.

[Jetxa]

Anyone who has read Ishmael, The Tales of Adam or The Story of B by Daniel Quinn will recognize where I am coming from with the following.

IMO the Bible is a record of the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry; the power to decide who lives and dies in the world. Before agriculture, man was at the mercy of "the gods" for his sustenance. The gods decided who lived and who died. After argriculture, man was in control of his own food source and no longer at the mercy of the gods. If coyotes attack my heard of sheep, I launch a campaign to kill said coyotes. If I think I need more cows, I breed more cows. Anything I eat can live and anything that threatens what I eat must die. I am no longer a plaything of the gods (or God) but have "eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Agriculture did not come to be because of a response to famine. People who are starving do not have time to wait for crops to grow anymore than a drowning person has time to build a raft. Crops are grown by people who already have enough food. Growing food is a very inefficient way to live and actually creates famine in that more food produces more people and more people create a need for more food . . . and so it goes.

I hope I didn't go too far off topic with this.

Edited to add: Modern humans have been around for two hundred thousand years, but it has only been the past 10,000 years that agriculture has become part of lives. Yet our "history" according to the Bible begins and coincides with the Mesopotamian cultures or "the birthplace of civilization".

[Thorwench]

I don't know, Virgil, global warming is a fact and not a fiction and farming can be done responsibly and we still have a hell of a lot of forests in Europe. All the green movement here started because the forests died and something needed to be done about it. God gave earth to man but he also gave him reason. Nature should be altered but with reason. if you are so much in favour of a comfortable life what will you say to all those people who loose their homes and perhaps even their lives because their countries or cities or farms will cease to exist when see levels rise? It is not man who has lived comfortably then but only a few generations. We should protect the world for US and OUR decendants. No one in his or her right mind asks you to not drive a car or to not heat your home. But couldn't this all be done with a little less fuel? Is it such a hassle to put a filter in your diesel exhaust. Is it so difficult to perfer agricultural products that grow nearby? Is it reasonable to buy a tomato that travelled to you all from Holland if you can buy one from your neighbouring farm? Is it reasonable for factories to blow their wastes into the air or lead them into rivers if they could install a closed cycle?
Not all environmentalists are fanatics, they are even not all vegetarian. Do you think that the bible is a bad thing because they are a few bible bashers ringing every Tuesday on your door?

[Adudaewen]

I've seen environmentalist advocate eliminating humans off the earth.

I just wanted to go on record and say that I understand your view point, and I agree with you that in a lot of ways, some environmentalists become so fanatic that they go WAY off the mark. So on a whole, I think we see eye to eye, and we can always agree to disagree on the fine print.
Of course, I belive that small things that we can do will protect and preserve the earth, and I'm a believer in a lot of environmentalist ideals.

[Orionsbelt]

Just a side note. Another tumbling stone....

New York Times
February 27, 2007
Honeybees Vanish, Leaving Keepers in Peril
By ALEXEI BARRIONUEVO

VISALIA, Calif., Feb. 23 — David Bradshaw has endured countless stings during his life as a beekeeper, but he got the shock of his career when he opened his boxes last month and found half of his 100 million bees missing.

In 24 states throughout the country, beekeepers have gone through similar shocks as their bees have been disappearing inexplicably at an alarming rate, threatening not only their livelihoods but also the production of numerous crops, including California almonds, one of the nation’s most profitable........

Beekeepers have fought regional bee crises before, but this is the first national affliction.

I didn't copy the whole thing. If you search the NY times I'm sure you will find it.

[Jetxa]

To futher what I was trying to get across in my previous post . . .

With the rise and practice of agriculture, man came to the conclusion that the world was made for him, as he was living as if the world was made for him. The idea grew out of the lifestyle. According to this idea, God seems to only care about people and not the earth itself. After all, God will "fix" things with a new heaven and a new earth. No worries!

Ask someone to look for God, nine times out of ten they will look skyward. Yes, we're down her mucking it up; but don't worry, God will "save" us and our planet.

Before "revealed" relgion, our world was a sacred place where God (or the gods) dwelt continuously. God was what animated the world. God could no more be separated from the earth and creation as could man be separated from it.

Tear down any building and haul the debris away, in a very short time new growth will appear. In one of the creation stories in the Bible, on the sixth day creation did not end nor was it finished. This left the door open for God's continued presence on earth and in his creation. God is here now. The earth is in process.

As many of you have said, man is killing the earth and himself along with it. I for one refuse to bet my money on a "saviour".

[Wintermute]

. . .then we might as well throw out the Bible.

Now you're talking!

Common sense and science would be a much more reliable indicator of how we should treat our environment. After all, when the [orginal] Biblical texts were created, the earth was still flat and and the world's human population was less than 200 million. Today, the earth is spherical and has a population approaching 8 billion. And dang near every one of those 8 billion drives a car and consumes large quantities of hydrocarbon based electricity -- even more so now that the third-world folks are coming on line.

I'm as big an energy glutton as anyone, so I feel a bit hypocritical in these statements, but come on! Use your [God given?] common sense! We need to treat our environment like it was a part of us -- in a way it is.

Just a side thought: Would your all's God be pro/anti nuclear [fission] energy? As an agnostic, I'm as uncertain about this as anything else. But, I'd like to believe that if a god exists it would encourage the use of cleaner forms of energy.