God is Green

[Virgil]

This has nothing to do with anything but it cheeses me off. Near my mom's house they just keep building strip mall after strip mall, even when half of them are still empty, there are at least 2 huge stores that are closed yet there's still building going on. Urban sprawl annoys me.

Blame your politicians, not the companys that are looking to establish businesses. Your local politicians establish commercial zones, residential zones, and park land. And given that I assume you live in a free country your politicians are a reflection of the people they represent.

I know that when I walk in the woods, the chestnut trees are gone, as is the American elm tree.

Those were from natural diseases, not pollution or human activity.

I know that the locust tress turn brown far sooner than they used to. I know that there are many more ATV trails than there has ever been. ... with the ruts in the forest that go along with it.

I can't answer the locust (I suspect it's also from nautral diseases) but as to the trails (I assume these are bike trails) I agree. I do think that dirt bike trails ruin the forest. But that's a legal matter that allows it. See my respoonse to Papaya above.

I know that when I paddle down a creek that has just come down from a flood there is bottles and tires, tarps, and trash in great abundance stuck in the trees.

Well, that's crimninal and anyone doing that is breaking the law in just about any place in the US. Frankly I haven't noticed it. I don't know how old you are, but when I was growing up, yeah, this was common. Not only have we clean water laws since the 1970s, there has also been a cultural change where most people don't pollute reflexively.

I know that Japanese knot weed grows where it wasn't before.

I don't know the specifics of this, but there has been an increased of non-native species transplanted. But that's because people in the world travel everywhere now. They wind up inadvertantly carrying seeds and insects getting into planes and getting transplanted. Should we halt travel? I think most people enjoy seeing other parts of the world.

I know that I used to be able to walk in lake Erie without shoes. I know that carp don't belong in our rivers.. especially the one with tumors on them. I know that you used to not have to stock trout streams every spring. I know that oak trees used to have less gauls on them. I know that crown vetch should not be growing in hillside meadows. I know most poplars have died off. I know that Hemlocks used to be abundant as did sycamore trees. I know that elderberry trees where once very common. I know you can't find wild ginger any more. I know you have to look hard to find spice bush or 'sang. I know that you shouldn't see soap bubbles on rivers. I know that lake Erie has less than half of the species that used to live in it even when the phos levels were through the roof. I know that Turkeys used to be twice the size you see now. I know you used to be able to hike in places without treating water. I know that most people don't even know what these things are. Other than that I don't know a damn thing.

I used the word eco-chondriacs above somewhere. I didn't invent it. There is this perception that the world is coming to an end over every little nuissance. I blame it on the media for constantly having to supply us with bad news. In reality, humanity has never had so good in the history of mankind. We are living longer healthier lives in more prosperous circumstances. We are able to travel and learn about all sorts of places when in the recent past most people never left a single village. We are able to learn with computers and meet wonderful people all over the earth. Life is good, lighten up.

As to the religious question that was brought up originally I cite this from Genesis. The underline is my emphasis.

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

That God has provided the earth for man's use is the traditional Judeo-Christian understanding of the earth.

[Orionsbelt]

An avalanche is made of lots of small stones rolling down the same hill. I think you made my point for me. Have all the dominion and domination that you want. I certainly can't stop it. When everyone has finished dominating, sub-doing, etc. there will not be the same quality creation to enjoy. Sort of like looking at a video of the Grand Canyon .. not the same.

[kilted exile]

Ok, a few quick points:

1) Climate change is definetely happening, this is evident in any number of ways - reduced glacial depth, increased summer temperatures/heat waves in places which never used to be effected by such problems, delayed winter, increased rainfall instead of snow etc

2) The only real question is how much of it is natural & to what extent it has been caused by the actions of people, there is unfortunately no complete definitive evidence which shows what the exact cause is. This imo is because there is no one cause; yes the world would possibly be increasing in temperature even if we were not here. However, the pollution caused by our actions on this planet, leading to the greenhouse effect (not to be confused with the depletion of the Ozone layer), have an effect as well. We may not be solely to blame but we still have had an impact.

3) We have a choice to make - We can say I'm not going to change, until it is proved my actions are what is causing this (and even then so what I like this, screw the future)? Or we can say what steps can I take that will still allow me to live a comfortable life, but act in a more eologically friendly manner?

4) There is no need to get rid of all of the things we enjoy about life, but there are ways to do them in a more responsible manner.

[papayahed]

Blame your politicians, not the companys that are looking to establish businesses. Your local politicians establish commercial zones, residential zones, and park land.

I blame both.

And given that I assume you live in a free country your politicians are a reflection of the people they represent

uhhhh, yeah.

[Adudaewen]

That God has provided the earth for man's use is the traditional Judeo-Christian understanding of the earth.

It is true that God did give man dominion over the earth and all of its inhabitants. However, I certainly do not think that makes it okay for people to tear the earth apart simply because we can. We have to understand that our fates are intertwined with those of every other living being on this earth. Everything that we do has an impact, be it negative or positive, on everyone else, including plants and animals. With that dominion comes great responsibility to protect our environment even while we profit and live from it. It certainly doesn't diminish our capabilities to live a good, healthy life while also being environmentally efficient. Things like conserving energy and water take hardly any effort at all and very little inconvenience. God teaches us not to squander His gifts and I think that includes nature and our world.

[Thorwench]

Hi Orion, you list is mightily impressive and I cannot see how this wouldn't be enough for anyone.
In 1990 I went to Austria and spend my summer holidays hiking to glaciers up in the Alps. Those glaciers, the ones I went up to, are gone by now. They showed on telly how a bit of the Eiger mountain fell down and tumbled into the valley beneath. The ice that has been there for thousands of years is definitely melting and since it held the rocks together they fall once its gone. In my garden I had roses and sweet peas flowering in December, I could have picked summer flowers for my christmas tree. May beetles (cockchafers) used to be in abundance when I was a kid, now I have seen only one in the last 20 years. My children don't understand the old may beetle songs and poems anymore because they have NEVER seen one. Certain bird species have disappeared entirely. Two or three years ago when in France, I had the great pleasure of walking through oil slick where there used to be fields of shells and mussels, crabs, fishes, seals and sea birds. It almost breaks your heart when you know how it looked a decade ago.

[Orionsbelt]

It almost breaks your heart when you know how it looked a decade ago.

Thanks! I spend a lot of time outdoors and I see things that just aren't the way they should be. I can't really say it's this thing or that thing but I can't help but get the feeling that all is not well. Sometimes I feel as Virgil said light'n up. Then I notice some other thing. It is not a forgone conclusion that any of these changes are anything more than just changes. Induced by man or otherwise. I do know that we don't understand the system well enough. I guess my problem is that I'm not sure enough people are watching. I don't know..... I do hope I'm wrong. I guess we will all find out.

[Adudaewen]

The world has been dying since the day it was created. Just like us. We a living on a dying world, and as sad as that is, we cannot stop it. All we can hope to do is to slow it down a little bit. If you think that it has been bad this year with the bizzare winter we had, just wait. Its going to get so much worse!

[Nightshade]

In reality, humanity has never had so good in the history of mankind. We are living longer healthier lives in more prosperous circumstances.

BUt heres a question for you are we? I know people who would argue with that mostly old people in thier 90s who think its unnatural that they live this long and would rather be dead insttead of being pumped full of pills and being practically incapable of doing anything for themsleves. ANd another thing if we take religious writings as historical accouns there are several eferances to people living over three hundred years. Noah for one is said to have called his people for over a hundred years ( for some reason Im thinking its three hundred and somthing but I cant find exact refernce but I know it longer than ramses the secnd reign which was 202 years) before the flood Im pretty sure he didnt satar the calling till he was in his 40s and he survived the flood.

As to the religious question that was brought up originally I cite this from Genesis. The underline is my emphasis.
That God has provided the earth for man's use is the traditional Judeo-Christian understanding of the earth.

God teaches us not to squander His gifts and I think that includes nature and our world.

MOre or less what I wanted to say but also arent we supposed to protect and look after the gifts of God as respect and love of God, Im pretty sure thats one of the resaons we cant commit suiceeide becasue its squndering a gift of God, as well the wholeits a mark of desperation and lack of faith.

I might also add Daffodls are blooming and the JUNE Roses are already budding.

[Adudaewen]

MOre or less what I wanted to say but also arent we supposed to protect and look after the gifts of God as respect and love of God, Im pretty sure thats one of the resaons we cant commit suiceeide becasue its squndering a gift of God, as well the wholeits a mark of desperation and lack of faith..

exactly!

[Virgil]

Well, you guys can make up your own religiuos ideas, but I quoted what was in the Bible. Historically that has been the position of Judeo-Christian perspective. Now if certain church people are "evolving" with current pop ideas, then we might as well throw out the Bible. Now that you're creating your own theology, what may I ask is the name of this religion that your creating?

[Adudaewen]

I don't find it outrageous to claim that God wants us to protect our environment. Obviously He created this wonderful world for us to use, but does having dominion over something mean we can use it however we see fit? Doesn't having dominion carry a burden of responsibility? Responsibility to protect it, and to ensure it will carry on to our children. God created every living creature on this earth. Do you think he loves them less than He loves u? Are they not his creations also?
Matthew 6:26-29"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these." God cares for these, so "lowly" compared to His greatest creation, man.

Deuteronomy 20:19 "When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destryo its trees by putting and ax to them, because you can eat thier fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them?" God is saying that wanton destruction is unnecessary.
Deuteronomy 22:1-4 "If you see your brother's ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to him. If the brother does not live near you or if you do not know who he is, take it home with you and keep it until he comes looking for it. Then give it back to him. Do the same if you find your brother's donkey or his cloak or anything that he loses. Do not ignore it. If you see your brother's donkey or his ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help him get it to its feet." Here His concern is for the weak and helpless and extends to the animal kingdome for thes laws protect animals as well as humans.
Luke 16:10 states "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much." verse 12 says " And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?"
I think all of these verses tell us how important it is to God that we use our gifts responsibly. I'll keep digging because I'm sure that I can find more.

[Virgil]

Adudaewen, most of those quotes you listed are how to be a good neighbor or putting trust in God to be fed. I interpret "Are you not of more value than they [the birds]?" as man being of more value than nature.

In addition check out this:

Pslam 8:
: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5: For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6: Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8: The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Dominion and all things under his feet.

[Adudaewen]

I am not arguing that man has dominion over the earth. All I am trying to say is responsibility goes along with that dominion. For example, it says in Ephesians 4:22-24 "Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body of which he is the savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." This is a much misunderstood verse because people sometimes choose to stop here. NOw in this paragraph, God is giving the head of the family to the man. In a sense he is given dominion over his wife. However if we read on, it continues in verse 25 "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the churche and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. he who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-for we are members of his body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. this is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Chrisht and the church. However each one of you must also love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
So God gives man the head of the household, but he also charges him with the responsibility of caring for his wife as though his own body. God never gives control, power, dominion lightly. We are always responsible for everything we are charged with, be that our conduct with our neighbors, our families, our environment.
Matthew 6:26"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them" Why would he feed them if they didn't matter to Him? If they weren't dear to Him?
Deuteronomy 22:1-4 "If you see your brother's ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to him. If the brother does not live near you or if you do not know who he is, take it home with you and keep it until he comes looking for it." Why would he care about a stray sheep or ox if the environment didn't matter to Him?
"When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting and ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down" Why not cut them down, if we've been given dominion over the earth with no responsibility, why would we give a rip about a fruit tree???
Intriguing questions, no?

[Virgil]

I am not arguing that man has dominion over the earth. All I am trying to say is responsibility goes along with that dominion. For example, it says in Ephesians 4:22-24 "Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body of which he is the savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." This is a much misunderstood verse because people sometimes choose to stop here. NOw in this paragraph, God is giving the head of the family to the man. In a sense he is given dominion over his wife. However if we read on, it continues in verse 25 "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the churche and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. he who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-for we are members of his body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. this is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Chrisht and the church. However each one of you must also love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
So God gives man the head of the household, but he also charges him with the responsibility of caring for his wife as though his own body. God never gives control, power, dominion lightly. We are always responsible for everything we are charged with, be that our conduct with our neighbors, our families, our environment.
Matthew 6:26"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them" Why would he feed them if they didn't matter to Him? If they weren't dear to Him?
Deuteronomy 22:1-4 "If you see your brother's ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to him. If the brother does not live near you or if you do not know who he is, take it home with you and keep it until he comes looking for it." Why would he care about a stray sheep or ox if the environment didn't matter to Him?
"When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting and ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down" Why not cut them down, if we've been given dominion over the earth with no responsibility, why would we give a rip about a fruit tree???
Intriguing questions, no?

Perhaps. I will give half way and say that I don't think God would like us destroying the earth. We should be good stewarts. However, clearly it is here for our use. In fact, farming and planting is one of the most unnatural acts to the environment. No where in nature do fields of lettuce grow or farms of tomatos or crops of anything or vineyards of grapes. Nor is herding and breeding of sheep or cows or horses a natural act. These are all acts of man using his intelligence to manipulate nature for his betterment. You live in Nebraska, Adudaewen. Surely you can see the difference between the wilderness and the farms.

Perhaps since everyone is battling against me (which I don't mind, BTW ) I think I'm getting misinterpreted. I'm not advocating not trying to be cleaner with the environment or preserving wilderness. I just feel that the environmentalist have gone too far, especially with this global warming thing. But that's what makes us different.