Veggie club :)

[kathycf]

You mean, before you ate him?

Smartypants.

[Virgil]

(I'm a veggie, too)
hey old Virg, your evolutionary argument is slightly flawed, in my humble opinion. I agree that people are equipped with the right kind of teeth and digestive tract to eat meat. But even back in the stone age, eating meat would have been the exception rather than the rule because it was such a big hassle to catch the meat in the first place.

Quite the contrary Sleepy. I don't know where you got your information, but it's wrong.

NEW TESTING ON FOSSIL REMAINS INDICATES PREHISTORIC MAN ATE BALANCED DIET
By ROBERT REINHOLD, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: January 9, 1982
A rich new understanding of the evolution of the human diet is beginning to emerge as a result of sophisticated chemical and microscopic tests on the fossil remains of prehistoric humans.

The results of these tests are challenging some long-held notions about the daily life of prehistoric people, particularly on the importance of meat in the ancient diet. According to one study, early man was neither so carnivorous nor so herbivorous as some previous studies have indicated, but instead had a more balanced diet. When Did Meat Enter the Diet?

Reports on the new tests were present ed at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which ended today, at the Washington Hilton Hotel. Glynn L. Isaac, an anthropologist at the University of Californi a at Berkeley, said the session was aimed at stimulating interest in this neglected aspect ofhuman evolution. Until now, research has been limited because the evidence was fragmentary and because direct e xperimental tests were not available.

Since today's primitive people who depend on hunting and gathering consume four to five times as much meat as nonhuman primates, a major question is when and how meat became a substantial part of the human diet.

One school of thought has held that early manlike creatures that flourished in Africa two million years ago were carnivores with males playing the key role in food gathering; the other has held that the diet was based more on vegetation, with females playing a dominant role.

Neither view is correct, according to Professor Isaac and two associates, Richard B. Potts, a lecturer at Yale University, and Henry T. Bunn, a doctoral student at Berkeley. Th e team has been examining the tools and food refuse in early hominid sites in Kenya and Tanzania. Microscopic examination of animal bones and stone toolsshowed signs of butchering and scraping of meat.

''We have direct evidence that early hominids did leave stone cuts on a variety of animals,'' Mr. Bunn said. But while this indicated meat eating was important, he said that the team advocated a ''balanced view,'' stating that the evidence did not suggest meat was used to the exclusion of plants. ''There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that early hominids, with half our brains, could successfully hunt and kill large animals,'' he said.

''Most of us who study early prehistory,'' Professor Isaac said, ''are firmly convinced that fruits, nuts and perhaps tubers, dug up with simple tools, were the mainstay of life.

''The interest in confirming that meat, too, had become more important than it was for monkeys and apes is that this may have helped produce a situation in which collective social acquisition of food was more advantageous than the individualistic feeding characteristic of our primate relatives. Strontium Levels Examined

''Collective acquisition of food may in turn have stimulated the development of language ability and of intricate social patterns.'' Other new techniques involve examining fossil teeth under an electron microscope for ''microwear'' clues to the type of food chewed and how it was obtained, and making chemical and carbon isotope analyses of skeletal remains for indications of lifetime diet.

For example, Margaret Schoeninger of the Johns Hopkins University and Andrew Sillen of the Smithsonian Institution have seized on new techniques of geochemistry to indicate that carnivores could be expected to have much lower levels of strontium in their bones than herbivores. Strontium, a major component in the earth's crust, is retained at different rates by animals and plants.

The two scientists theorized that fossil humans, as omnivores, would show strontium levels between those of carnivores and herbivores. This is exactly what was found when Dr. Sillen analyzed 10,000-year-old remains of humans and animals found in a cave in the western Galilee section of Israel. However, the strontium analysis was useless when attempted on 20,000-year-old specimens.

I didn't past ethe entire article since it was so long. you can find it here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A964948260

One of the criteria that separates man from other primates is his more developed biology for consuming meat. Eating meat is human.

[SleepyWitch]

argh, my cooking vocab is a black hole, but I'll try anyway

*Sleepy's Banana Curry
(this is a curry i invented myself, Maddie and Pensy are gonna hate me for it because it's very touristy, not 'originally' Indian/Pk at all. it's extremely nourishing)

you need:
tomatoes, onion, ginger root, garlic, raisins, bananas, peas, curry powder, oil,
rice

1. cut up the onions, ginger root, garlic
2. fry (right word?) the onion in oil, add the ginger and garlic
3. add cut-up tomatoes, stir until they are gone? juicy?liquid? (you know, when the peels shrivel up and the flesh turns into sauce?)
5. meanwhile, soak the raisins in water
4. add banana slices, peas, raisins and curry powder, stir
5. allow it to simmer for a while, but not very long
6. eat with rice

*Sleepy's Mum's Salad

veg:
canned (? it comes in a jar) white asparagus
kidney beans
button mushrooms (can be canned ones)
cucumber (--> slices)

dressing:
olive oil, vinegar, salt, sugar, a pinch of pepper, half a tea spoon of mustard, diced onion, cream (the kind you use for whipped cream), yoghurt, Thai Sauce for chicken (the hot&sweet one with pepper seeds in it (cf pic)

this salad is very nourishing, as well, you can eat this as a main course with some french bread

[Virgil]

And here is another:

Meat a part of human diet for ~2.5 million years

The evidence of the fossil record is, by and large, clear: Since the inception of the earliest humans (i.e., the genus Homo, approximately 2.5 million years ago), the human diet has included meat. This is well-known in paleoanthropological circles, and is discussed in Setting the Scientific Record Straight on Humanity's Evolutionary Prehistoric Diet and Ape Diets.
The current state of knowledge regarding the diet of our prehistoric ancestors is nicely summarized in Speth [1991, p. 265]:


[S]tone tools and fossil bones--the latter commonly displaying distinctive cut-marks produced when a carcass is dismembered and stripped of edible flesh with a sharp-edged stone flake--are found together on many Plio-Pleistocene archaeological sites, convincing proof that by at least 2.0 to 2.5 Ma [million years ago] before present (BP) these early hominids did in fact eat meat (Bunn 1986; Isaac and Crader 1981). In contrast, plant remains are absent or exceedingly rare on these ancient sites and their role in early hominid diet, therefore, can only be guessed on the basis of their known importance in contemporary forager diets, as well as their potential availability in Plio-Pleistocene environments (for example, see Peters et al. (1984); Sept (1984). Thus few today doubt that early hominids ate meat, and most would agree that they probably consumed far more meat than did their primate forebears. Instead, most studies nowadays focus primarily on how that meat was procured; that is, whether early hominids actively hunted animals, particularly large-bodied prey, or scavenged carcasses...
I fully concur with the view that meat was a regular and important component of early hominid diet. For this, the archaeological and taphonomic evidence is compelling.


Early hominid diet was mixed, not exclusive

The comments in Mann [1981, pp. 24-25] further illuminate the above:

Nevertheless, given the available archaeological evidence and what is known of the dietary patterns of living gatherer/hunters and chimpanzees, it appears unlikely to me that all early hominids were almost exclusively carnivorous or herbivorous. It is more reasonable to suggest that the diet of most early hominids fell within the broad range of today's gatherer/hunter diets, but that within the wide spectrum of this adaptation, local environmental resources and seasonal scarcity may have forced some individual populations to become more dependent on vegetable or animal-tissue foods than others.

The remarks by Mann remind us of the obvious: that early hominid diets, like hunter-gatherer diets, are a function of local flora and fauna; such diets are limited to the local food base (and to food acquired via trading).


"Natural" behavior a function of evolution

The evidence that meat has been part of the human diet for ~2.5 million years, thus, directly implies that meat is a "natural" part of the human diet, where "natural" is defined as: those foods one is adapted to consume by evolution. (Side note to vegetarians: The fact that meat is a natural part of the evolutionary diet does not imply that one must, or even should, eat meat.)
Some raw dietary advocates, in apparent denial of the evolutionary evidence, try to turn "opportunistic feeding" into a straw-man argument. The straw-man argument they construct is that the claim meat can be a natural part of the diet is based solely on the idea that humans can (and do) eat meat; they then claim it is circular logic, asserting that the "possibility" is not evidence it is "natural." However, this type of criticism or straw-man argument is based on a rather astonishing ignorance of--or at least certainly a denial of--evolutionary adaptation and how it occurs (discussed below). As such, the anti-"opportunistic feeding" straw-man argument is logically invalid.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-3a.shtml

[SleepyWitch]

Quite the contrary Sleepy. I don't know where you got your information, but it's wrong.


I didn't past ethe entire article since it was so long. you can find it here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A964948260

One of the criteria that separates man from other primates is his more developed biology for consuming meat. Eating meat is human.

i skimmed through the passage you quoted.. does it say exactly HOW much meat they ate?
I never said there was anything wrong with a BALANCED diet by the way. the thing is that the diet of most people in the developed world is dangerously skewed towards the meat side.
"Eating meat is human" yep sure, but that doesn't mean each and every human being has to eat meat if they don't want to.
Having a choice is human, too, isn't it?
--> if you want to eat meat, feel free to do it. I'm sure nobody in here will think any worse of you.
--> veggies don't want to eat meat. so what? it's up to them.

[Madhuri]

Hey Sleepy, I like the Banana curry recipe. I am a veggie too, not because I chose to, but because I had no choice, and I do plan to try out everything someday, including wine and other similar drinking stuff (Thank God my parents are not reading this, they will probably faint if they get to know I plan to do all this ).

I would love to see some more recipies. What you shared is an easy one I know of a few recipies, let me think of the proper procedure and then i'll share what I know here

[SleepyWitch]

Hey Sleepy, I like the Banana curry recipe. I am a veggie too, not because I chose to, but because I had no choice,

how come you had no choice? are your parents just radical veggies or is it some kind of caste thing? no offence meant, but our Geography prof who specialises on Asia told us in India vegetarianism is a status symbol of high caste... maybe it's not an overt status symbol (???) but he showed us a table of diets by caste and it turned out the lowests caste/poor people will eat anything (even beef) whereas the top castes are vegetarians/vegans

[SleepyWitch]

a little PS to annoy Uncle Virgil:
Taking cold showers is human. After all there were no hot ones in the stone age, so in terms of evolution, they are not human

[Virgil]

i skimmed through the passage you quoted.. does it say exactly HOW much meat they ate?

I think one of the articles said it was relative to what was available for each locale.

I never said there was anything wrong with a BALANCED diet by the way. the thing is that the diet of most people in the developed world is dangerously skewed towards the meat side.

I never said there was anything wrong with either balanced or unbalanced. I don't know how you measure (and remember I'm an engineer that deals with data) when it is "dangerously skewed towards the meat side." There are eskimo populations that live solely on animals, and very fatty animals at that.

"Eating meat is human" yep sure, but that doesn't mean each and every human being has to eat meat if they don't want to.
Having a choice is human, too, isn't it?

I hope I wasn't misinterpreted. I said I dissented from the general position of the thread because I sense a politically correct notion in our culture that eating meat is wrong. There seems to be some sort of positive moral value associated with vegetarianism. And you can see that with some of the posts here. I feel that it is human to eat meat. And anthropology seems to back me up. I neither applaud nor deplore vegetarianism.

--> if you want to eat meat, feel free to do it. I'm sure nobody in here will think any worse of you.
--> veggies don't want to eat meat. so what? it's up to them.

Oh for a good Sauerbraten right now. Mmmm. But with a good french or italian or californian red wine. Or perhaps a nice german beer. Oh I'm making myself hungry now.

[SleepyWitch]

i guess eskimos are diffferent because they don't eat the processed rubbish that passes for "meat" in the US and Europe, plus i think the whale meat and stuff they eat has more of the healthy kind of fats (unsaturated?). plus they spend lots of time working outdoors (at least traditionally they did, I don't mean the ones who live in towns, spend all day in front of the telly and get boozed up).

the Mongols eat loads of meat too, in winter that is. In summer they eat only dairy products. but the difference there is that they don't drain the blood from the meat like they do in the western world. the blood contains lots of vitamins and minerals, which can compensate for the lack of veg in their diet. (maybe it's the same with the eskimos?)

[Madhuri]

*Oops* -- I was replying to Sleepy

Its not that I cant have, but since the beginning we never ate it (so in a way I didnt have any choice, because I didnt see the other side), also the people I knew never had non-vegetarian food. Its now that I have friends who eat, but it doesnt matter to me what they eat, and they also dont bother much if I eat or not.

And, yes its a caste thing, but not really a status symbol. It is primarily the caste thing, but nothing much to do with poor or rich people. Technically, the caste system translates to the nature of work people of certain castes did, and in a way to their financial soundness too. I know so many who are not so economically sound, but they refrain from eating non-veg because of the caste they belong to.

I can have it if I like, now, but I will have to make sure that my parents are not aware of it, I dont think they will like it. I can tell them also, and I know they wont be able to do much about it, but, it can also be that I really dont feel so inclined to eating non-veg, but yes I may try out everything atleast once.

Atleast in the cities there is not such distinction to be seen. It is difficult to follow such rigid rules, and somehow I dont find it practical as well. For example, in India you'll can follow these rules if you want to, but if you decide to live in a place where you get only meat, fish etc, (usually colder nations), what will that person do?

Hey but, lets discuss some more recipies:

Here is the one I know (I dont cook, though, so if something happens after eating it, you know you'll never find me )

Palak Paneer

Ingredients:

Spinach (Palak)
cheese pieces (Paneer) I searched and I found that it is 'acid-set fresh mozzarella' without salt
garlic
onions
oil
salt
green chillies / red chillies

Preparation:

1. Boil the Spinach
2. Mash it, and make a paste of it.
3. fry the cheese pieces until golden brown and keep aside.
4. In a frying pan, heat the oil
5. Fry the chopped onions (you can also fry its paste instead)
6. Put garlic and chillies, and fry some more.
7. Now put the spinach paste and simmer, and let it cook for some time. Add salt at this point.
8. Add the cheese pieces and let it simmer again.

After a while when you see that all is mixed and cooked well, its ready to be served.

It will look something like this :

[kathycf]

*edit* Maddie, that looks really good! I had that type of cheese you mentioned in a local Indian restaurant and it was pretty tasty.

This looks pretty good, but I then really like asparagus. Some people don't care for it too much. (I think you need to get fresh asparagus and then steam it...canned doesn't do it justice.)

Lemon Pepper Pasta & Asparagus
From: Karen C. Greenlee

Serving Size: 4

* 4 ounces uncooked farfelle (bow-tie) pasta
* 1/4 cup olive oil
* 1 medium red bell pepper -- chopped
* 1 pound asparagus -- cut into 1" pieces
* 1 teaspoon grated lemon peel
* 1/2 teaspoon salt
* 1/2 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
* 3 tablespoons lemon juice
* 1 15-16 oz can Navy beans -- rinsed & drained
* freshly ground pepper

Cook and drain pasta per package directions.

While pasta is cooking, heat oil in a 12-inch skillet over medium high heat.
Cook bell pepper, asparagus, lemon peel, salt, and 1/2 tsp. pepper in oil, stirring occasionally, until vegetables are crisp-tender.
Add pasta; toss with vegetable mixture. Sprinkle with pepper.

I said I dissented from the general position of the thread because I sense a politically correct notion in our culture that eating meat is wrong. There seems to be some sort of positive moral value associated with vegetarianism. And you can see that with some of the posts here....
Oh for a good Sauerbraten right now. Mmmm. But with a good french or italian or californian red wine. Or perhaps a nice german beer. Oh I'm making myself hungry now.

I really don't see that notion here myself. But thats just me. Hey, can I join you with a glass of wine?

[Madhuri]

*edit* Maddie, that looks really good! I had that type of cheese you mentioned in a local Indian restaurant and it was pretty tasty.

I am glad you liked it If you are at any Indian restaurant, you need not translate it, just say Palak Paneer, and they'll know what you have asked for, there is a huge variety of cheese dishes that I know of . I'll post here more once I am sure of the recipe. Next time it will be even simpler...

[Logos]

Sleepy, I dunno about banana curry, I mean I can barely eat bananas on their own unless they're really green, but your salad sounds great! Sweet chili sauce is like ketchup to me

Madhuri, Paalak Paneer looks/sounds a lot like Saag Paneer? I make that all the time, but pretty much anything with spinach and I love it!

--

Ok here’s one.. I don’t really ‘do’ measuring, just eyeball things and taste as you go along so these measurements are approximate and all ingredients but broccoli are optional.

Broccoli salad:

4 stalks raw broccoli, cut into small bite size florets/pieces (I peel the stalks and use them too) so that you have about 6 cups total
4 medium sized carrots _thinly_ sliced
½ cup red onion, minced
1 green onion, finely sliced
½ cup red pepper, diced
½ cup dried cranberries or raisins
½ cup sunflower seeds and or sesame seeds
½ cup parsley, roughly chopped

Dressing:
2 tablespoons balsamic/rice wine/apple cider/red wine vinegar (I prefer apple cider because it is sweeter and seems to lend itself best to this combination YMMV)
2 tablespoons of olive oil
1 cup of feta cheese, crumbled (beef or goat)
1 cup cottage or ricotta cheese

Mix dressing in separate bowl first, then combine it with the broccoli etc. Chill in fridge for a few hours before eating

[Madhuri]

Madhuri, Paalak Paneer looks/sounds a lot like Saag Paneer? I make that all the time, but pretty much anything with spinach and I love it!

You got it!!

Thats another name of the same thing