Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

[Virgil]

I think that this scene is perhaps best appreciated as the first appearance of the word "S A U C Y" in the play.



Only posted that for you, Brit and Mar.

Oh, I thought I was actually getting someone to contribute to this discussion. It feels lonely here.

[ShoutGrace]

I contributed. *indignant* I meant what I said, "saucy" is important.

I've been busying myself with devotional readings and Christmas obligations. I'll try sometime soon, Virgil.

[Schokokeks]

Oh, I thought I was actually getting someone to contribute to this discussion. It feels lonely here.

Really, Virgil, your last post was on Christmas Eve, people might be enjoying the few holidays and spending some time off the computer .

I'll be with you again when I can reread the scenes in my copy at home - I'm at my parents' and there's looooads of strange relatives around

[Schokokeks]

So now, relatives gone, house in a mess . *hands plate with left-over Christmas cookies over to Virgil*

But he certainly jumps on it when Octavia is spurned. And frankly that too is ambiguous. Was she spurned? So much of Act III seems opaque.

I don't think she was spurned, and she herself doesn't experience her returning to Rome in that way, although her brother mentions it to her. Octavia is rather torn between two men she belongs to. However Antony very readily sends her back to Rome, and doesn't seem to think about the consequences of how this move might be interpreted by others, e.g. as him spurning his newly-wed wife. If I remember correctly, in real history Antony and Octavia were married and stayed together for several years and even had children. But Willy had to cut that down a bit, of course, as he has already undertaken to cover a span of some 10 years.

[Schokokeks]

And notice how different he speaks to Cleo. He rails at her in a supercilios manner, unlike that of Act I where she lorded over him. He tells her "You have been a boggler ever" and "I found you as a morsel cold upon dead Ceasar's trencher; nay, you were a fragment of Gneaus Pompey's".

However, since Cleo now will not turn over to Caesar's side and Antony is regaining courage (a dead-cat bounce ?), the two lovers' fate is again presented as interwoven:

ANT:
...
I and my sword will earn our chronicle:
There's hope in it yet.

CLEO:
That's my brave lord!

ANT:...

CLEO:
It is my birth-day:
I had thought to have held it poor: but since my lord
Is Antony again, I will be Cleopatra.

ANT:
We will yet do well.

However, while everyone can clearly characterize Thersites as cynical, I don't think that Enobarbus is cynical here. I would characterize them as realistic.

That's a good point. To me, his comments appear somewhat Kantian, deploring and mocking Antony's shifted notion of reason and proper judgement, that in the end will cause his ship to sink and his crew to drown with him:

...Antony only, that would make his will
Lord of his reason ...
The itch of his affections should not then
Have nicked his captainship ...

and

... I see men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes ...
... Caesar, thou hast subdued his judgment, too.

For me, Enobarbus lost much of his position as a serio-comic observer when standing outside Caesar's camp and comtemplating his treason. Here, the events directly involve and concern him. No one can give him advice now, nor can he counsel anyone anymore, finally committing suicide.

[Schokokeks]

I meant what I said, "saucy" is important.

Oh dear, I must have overlooked that. Thank you for pointing out *adds "saucy" to her English vocabulary*

[Virgil]

(a dead-cat bounce ?)

Where did you learn that phrase? I didn't think anyone outside the US used it, not even in England. Do the English use it? I would love to know. I used to hate that phrase because it seemed so insensitive to poor kittys, but it has a punch, doesn't it?

For me, Enobarbus lost much of his position as a serio-comic observer when standing outside Caesar's camp and comtemplating his treason. Here, the events directly involve and concern him. No one can give him advice now, nor can he counsel anyone anymore, finally committing suicide.

His suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.

So now, relatives gone, house in a mess . *hands plate with left-over Christmas cookies over to Virgil*

I don't think she was spurned, and she herself doesn't experience her returning to Rome in that way, although her brother mentions it to her. Octavia is rather torn between two men she belongs to. However Antony very readily sends her back to Rome, and doesn't seem to think about the consequences of how this move might be interpreted by others, e.g. as him spurning his newly-wed wife. If I remember correctly, in real history Antony and Octavia were married and stayed together for several years and even had children. But Willy had to cut that down a bit, of course, as he has already undertaken to cover a span of some 10 years.

Thank you for the cookies. Hope you enjoyed the holidays. Yes, it probably comes across a little different in the play than it must have been in real life. You raise an interesting question. Does Antony realize the consequences of sending Octavia to Rome? You know I'm not sure. One can make an arguement either way. This whole section of the play as I've said above somewhere is ambiguous.

[Virgil]

Three observations of Act IV

(1) One of the odd things about Act IV is how it repeats Act III. Ceasar's and Antony's armies engage, Antony winning on land and then another sea battle, and again the Egyptians abandon Antony, and Antony loses. What is the significance of the repetition? And again the details are vague and ambiguous. And again Antony blames Cleopatra, and another argument ensues. We've seen this all in the previous act.

(2) Another irony is Antony's frequent calling of his attendant, Eros. From the encyclopedia:

Eros, the Greek god of love and sexual desire (the word eros, which is found in the Iliad by Homer, is a common noun meaning sexual desire). He was also worshiped as a fertility god, believed to be a contemporary of the primeval Chaos, which makes Eros one of the oldest gods. In the Dionysian Mysteries Eros is referred to as "protagonus", the first born. But there are many variations to whom the parents of Eros really where. According to Aristophanes (Birds) he was born from Erebus and Nyx (Night); in later mythology Eros is the offspring of Aphrodite and Ares. Yet in the Theogony, the epic poem written by Hesiod, it mentions a typified Eros as being an attendant of Aphrodite, but not her son. Another legend says that he was the son of Iris and Zephyrus.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/eros.html

The name is so appropriate. Love and war and desire. It's as if Antony is calling his diety and the roots of his downfall. It echoes with pathos.

(3) Another observation is how the minor characters get dumped and new take their place without real distinction. Enobarbus starts the play, then replaced by Scarus and Eros, only to be replaced by Diomedes and Decretas.

Ceasar's camp also undergoes personnel changes. Dolabella, Maecenas, Gallus, and Proculeious just pop into the play at the end. Why does Shakespeare do this. He could have kept the same characters throughout.

[Virgil]

I think the answers to the several questions I raised in the post above (the personnel changes of the secondary characters and the ambiguities of acts 3 &4) can be answered in this exchange in Act IV between Antony and Eros. I would consider this Anotny's epiphany, perhaps the first of a series of climaxes to the play.

MARK ANTONY
Eros, thou yet behold'st me?

EROS
Ay, noble lord.

MARK ANTONY
Sometimes we see a cloud that's dragonish;
A vapour sometime like a bear or lion,
A tower'd citadel, a pendent rock,
A forked mountain, or blue promontory
With trees upon't, that nod unto the world,
And mock our eyes with air: thou hast seen
these signs;
They are black vesper's pageants.

EROS
Ay, my lord,

MARK ANTONY
That which is now a horse, even with a thought
The rack dislimns, and makes it indistinct,
As water is in water.

EROS
It does, my lord.

MARK ANTONY
My good knave Eros, now thy captain is
Even such a body: here I am Antony:
Yet cannot hold this visible shape, my knave.
I made these wars for Egypt: and the queen,--
Whose heart I thought I had, for she had mine;
Which whilst it was mine had annex'd unto't
A million more, now lost,--she, Eros, has
Pack'd cards with Caesar, and false-play'd my glory
Unto an enemy's triumph.
Nay, weep not, gentle Eros; there is left us
Ourselves to end ourselves.

The fluidity of life, the changing shapes, the world in flux, is what dawns on Antony in his acknowledgement of defeat. Life is not as stable as one envisions. Forces greater than oneself have great infleuence on one's life and love. And so Shakespeare I believe astheitically portrays that with the ambiguities of the drama, the shifting fortunes of war, and the ever changing characters through the action. "As water is water", coordinates with the navel defeats.

[Schokokeks]

Where did you learn that phrase? I didn't think anyone outside the US used it, not even in England. Do the English use it? I would love to know. I used to hate that phrase because it seemed so insensitive to poor kittys, but it has a punch, doesn't it?

Yes, it has . I don't know whether the English use it, but the Germans do . Here it comes from the stock-market jargon (that would explain why it is indeed insensitive ), where it is used to describe the spontaneous short-lasting rise of an exchange-price that has been falling for a long period of time before, and continues to do so after the dead-cat bounce (just wanted to use that once more ).

His suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.

To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.

[Virgil]

Yes, it has . I don't know whether the English use it, but the Germans do . Here it comes from the stock-market jargon (that would explain why it is indeed insensitive ), where it is used to describe the spontaneous short-lasting rise of an exchange-price that has been falling for a long period of time before, and continues to do so after the dead-cat bounce (just wanted to use that once more ).

Yes, that's where it comes from here too. Probably started on wall street.

To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.

Yes I agree. Foreshadows all the suicides. But I still feel its overly manipulated. But that's just my feeling.

Hey I posted one just above at almost the same time you just posted, so you may miss it.

[Schokokeks]

(2) Another irony is Antony's frequent calling of his attendant, Eros. The name is so appropriate. Love and war and desire. It's as if Antony is calling his diety and the roots of his downfall. It echoes with pathos.

In general, I don't believe too much in the significance of "speaking names", (Diomedes for instance means "clever as a God", and I wouldn't say this of any importance, but rather a fashionable name), but here I think this is indeed quite ironic. Though I think I read somewhere that Eros was quite a common name at the period, too, but I'm not sure.
After all, Eros presented a very strong "love", affection and faith when killing himself instead of following Antony's command to kill his lord.

(3) Another observation is how the minor characters get dumped and new take their place without real distinction.Why does Shakespeare do this. He could have kept the same characters throughout.

Good question ! Hmm...maybe it is symbolic: a new world-order is being established with Caesar's triumph over Cleo's/Antony's Eastern realm, and old actors on both sides have to make space for new ones, though after all, as you said, they're not much different.

I think Willy was quite daring here in this act, challenging the Aristotelean principle when letting one of the heros die in the second-to-last act.

[Virgil]

In general, I don't believe too much in the significance of "speaking names", (Diomedes for instance means "clever as a God", and I wouldn't say this of any importance, but rather a fashionable name), but here I think this is indeed quite ironic. Though I think I read somewhere that Eros was quite a common name at the period, too, but I'm not sure.
After all, Eros presented a very strong "love", affection and faith when killing himself instead of following Antony's command to kill his lord.

Yes. I have an audio version and DVD version, and in both the actor who plays Antony speaks the Eros name with resonance, so that it seems to echoe. EHH-ROOOS, EHH-ROOS. And I am surprised at how often Shakespeare has Antony call it out. Many times it seems just for the sake of getting the name out.

Good question ! Hmm...maybe it is symbolic: a new world-order is being established with Caesar's triumph over Cleo's/Antony's Eastern realm, and old actors on both sides have to make space for new ones, though after all, as you said, they're not much different.

I think Willy was quite daring here in this act, challenging the Aristotelean principle when letting one of the heros die in the second-to-last act.

You may have missed my latest post on this. I entered it as you were replying and may not have looked back. Check my post above, the first one for today where I quote Antony and the fluidity of the clouds. Yes I agree it challenges the Aristoelean principle of drama.

[Virgil]

His [Enobarbas] suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.

To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.

It's more than foreshadowing; it's contrast. Enobarbas's suicide in a lowly ditch and Antony's botched suicide contrast with Cleopatra's magnificent, sublime, transcendent suicide which serves as the play's climax. Their lowly suicides elevates hers. This is her suicide finale. "Husband I come." "I am fire and air." "Take the last warmth of my lips." "With thy sharp teeth this knot intrinsicate/Of life at once untie." "Peace, peace!"

CLEOPATRA
Give me my robe, put on my crown; I have
Immortal longings in me: now no more
The juice of Egypt's grape shall moist this lip:
Yare, yare, good Iras; quick. Methinks I hear
Antony call; I see him rouse himself
To praise my noble act; I hear him mock
The luck of Caesar, which the gods give men
To excuse their after wrath: husband, I come:
Now to that name my courage prove my title!
I am fire and air; my other elements
I give to baser life. So; have you done?
Come then, and take the last warmth of my lips.
Farewell, kind Charmian; Iras, long farewell.

Kisses them. IRAS falls and dies

Have I the aspic in my lips? Dost fall?
If thou and nature can so gently part,
The stroke of death is as a lover's pinch,
Which hurts, and is desired. Dost thou lie still?
If thus thou vanishest, thou tell'st the world
It is not worth leave-taking.

CHARMIAN
Dissolve, thick cloud, and rain; that I may say,
The gods themselves do weep!

CLEOPATRA
This proves me base:
If she first meet the curled Antony,
He'll make demand of her, and spend that kiss
Which is my heaven to have. Come, thou
mortal wretch,

To an asp, which she applies to her breast

With thy sharp teeth this knot intrinsicate
Of life at once untie: poor venomous fool
Be angry, and dispatch. O, couldst thou speak,
That I might hear thee call great Caesar ***
Unpolicied!

CHARMIAN
O eastern star!

CLEOPATRA
Peace, peace!
Dost thou not see my baby at my breast,
That sucks the nurse asleep?

CHARMIAN
O, break! O, break!

CLEOPATRA
As sweet as balm, as soft as air, as gentle,--
O Antony!--Nay, I will take thee too.

Applying another asp to her arm

What should I stay--

Dies

What an ending. It is magnificent to see this acted out, to watch Cleopatra take the asp and place it on her breast and slowly die and be frozen in place for the remainder of the scene, in queenly robes and crown. Her words are spoken so slowly and paced and whispered. It is all so ethereal.

I read this play once before and loved it then. Now after this second very detailed reading, I love it even more. I have more to say. I think I even now understand what the role of that mysterious Act II Scene 7 (the drunken scene) is to the play. But we shall wait for more people to catch up.

[Schokokeks]

But we shall wait for more people to catch up.

Yeah, me for example . I am back at university, where I don't have internet access in my flat, which is annoying, but should be fixed in a couple of days.
I just wanted to say that it's huuugely enriching to read your analysis and discuss with you, Virgil ! Although I can't contribute as much as I would like to, due to the above technical difficulties and lack of time. But I'll be back. Please do not forget what you meant to say about the drinking scene, I would love to here that soon !