Hip Hop Is Not Art

[SheykAbdullah]

SLG- Certainly art and democracy do make strange bedfellows. Art is inherently an elitist activity. It is about "bad" and "good" and "better" and "best" and the masses certainly lack the ability (or the interest) to make such choices. Plato warned of the problems of art in a democracy as did DeToqueville. I agree that in the visual arts we find many questionable works of art that are praised and collected by an increasingly "democratic" public. This public has the wealth to buy art, but has invested little effort into looking at art and learning about art. As such, they are prime dupes for underhanded dealers. As a working artist I completely reject the notion that the public in any way should be seen as the legitimate measure of artistic worth. I would also suggest that I find it quite intriguing that the notion of "elitism" is such a problem in art... and yet we have no problem in admitting that elitism... that measures of "good", "better" and "best" exist in other fields. Certainly, we would not think to take a poll of public opinion with regard to questions of quantum physics, biology, the law, history, etc... As Plato suggested centuries ago, you go to the doctor when you are sick. You don't poll the man in the street. Why then should I care the least for the opinion of the public who has invested no real time or effort into exploring and learning about art beyond that which is spoon-fed them by the entertainment industry?

Art and science are not even comparable. I do not want to get into an argument about Truth here, and while I uphold that the sciences and mathematics are arbitrary, the fact is that they have testable, independantly verifiable values. Art does not. If a painting is mispainted it does not blow up a rocket, does not send a bridge crashing to the ground. The sciences are a non-zero sum game. If you screw up, you've lost, and you are therefore varifiably wrong. Art is not even close. Art isn't even a game. There is no result. And as far as there being no public opinion poll on law, I would refer you to the concept of a referendum which is exercised every two years in most places in the US. Sometimes you might go an election without one, but it's rare.

Plato also suggested we have a philospher king. Would you agree to such a tyranny? I never would. Even a philosopher king of art. After all, didn't the entire scope of modern art evolve from the necesity of breaking the dictatorship of artistic elitism? What was the cry of the Salon des Refuses in 1863? Didn't Manet, Cezanne, Whistler and Pisarro decry the dictation of the elite, the Academy, in marking the quality and veracity of art in accepting any who would submit? What would art be today if no one stood up to challenge the authority of 'legitimate' taste? What did Modigliani's entire life stand for if not an empahtic statement of the unacceptability of the dictation of taste? His empty eyes, his long necks? We have never had an academy in this country, not for language, art or les belles lettres, and we do not need it because we are a country where the aesthetic is not dictated to us, and nor should it be, because such dication necesarily means certain important movements and ideas will be left in the cold and progress prohibited. Art, as it exists as an idea, must necesarily be unfettered. Movements must be allowed to run their course without intervention, and if that is done, if rap is accepted for what it is we may find it passes faster than we expect. After all, it draws its very greatness from its illegitimacy, when, in fact, it is not. If it is the ideas of rap that we find distasteful it is those ideas that must be fought and not rap, which I gather you would agree with. Art is nothing more than ordered expression, a vessel within which almost anything can be contained.

[subterranean]

Art is not smut.

And you don't burn the whole burn just to kill the few mice. And I believe, when you're talking about filth in entertaiment, hip hop is not alone.

[Obdurate]

Hip Hop is art just as rock is, just as metal is, just as punk is (or anti-art, whatever), just as jazz is, just as the blues is, etc. I don't even see why it's an issue.

Because mainstream rap tends to do with capitalist/materialistic issues such as money? And sexist issues? There's a lot of stuff that is diluted to get to the mainstream, though not everything is.

If you don't like mainstream rap- though there are good rappers in the mainstream, and to name a couple: Eminem and Nas- then dig deeper. You want variety? Rap has it.
Edit: Not that I enjoy the mainstream vs underground argument. I don't really agree with the idea of pitting them against each other instead of evaluating the entire genre as a whole, but like genres, it's easier for most people to understand if you do it.

cLOUDDEAD, basically ambient rap.
Sage Francis
Atmosphere, very much the opposite of what's in the mainstream in terms of subject matter.
Why?
Immortal Technique.

And so many more.

Those are just three but rap is very much art, also known as street poetry. It has a history, it has reason, it has passion, and it has a future... just because some people want to capitalize on it doesn't mean it isn't art.

There's also the Rap vs Hip Hop debate but I'd just rather not get involved with THAT.

[ghideon]

OK.

Hip-Hop music exists. Yes?

If Yes, then is it art?

Excerpts from a Wikipedia article entitled Hip Hop.

'It consists of two main components: rapping (MCing) and DJing (audio mixing and scratching)."


"It is, typically,: intensely rhythmic lyrical form making abundant use of techniques like:assonance, alliteration, and rhyme." (emphasis added)

"The rapper is accompanied by an instrumental track, usually referred to as a "beat", performed by a DJ, created by a producer, or one or more instrumentalists. This beat is often created using a sample of the percussion break of another song, usually a funk or soul recording. In addition to the beat other sounds are often sampled, synthesized, or performed. Sometimes a track can be instrumental, as a showcase of the skills of the DJ or producer."

"In the 1990s, a form of hip hop called gangsta rap (emphasis added) became a major part of American music, causing significant controversy over lyrics which were perceived as promoting violence, terrorism [2], promiscuity, drug use and misogyny. Nevertheless, by the beginning of the 2000s, hip hop was a staple of popular music charts and was being performed in many styles across the world." )emphasis added)

We are now, I believe, in a better position to discuss the merits, value, impact of hip-hop. And we are most certainly in a better position to determine which disagreements concern facts and which are rooted in perspectives/opinions.

G

[Logos]

interesting articles today on http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/29/D8MAMLF00.html and Washingtonpost.com about " 'Ghost-riding the whip,' as it's known, has swept from its origins in San Francisco's East Bay to much of the rest of the country, propelled by a pair of hip-hop songs that celebrate this exceptionally dangerous regional tradition."

I've never heard of this before

[jon1jt]

interesting articles today on http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/29/D8MAMLF00.html and Washingtonpost.com about " 'Ghost-riding the whip,' as it's known, has swept from its origins in San Francisco's East Bay to much of the rest of the country, propelled by a pair of hip-hop songs that celebrate this exceptionally dangerous regional tradition."

I've never heard of this before

great article logos thanks! it demonstrates how vulnerable teens emulate the music videos and some get killed while hip hoppers sit in plush studios (many doing drugs) and cooking up more filthy ways to sell records. i read an article that said that the music per se is besides the point. what drives hip hop is "image." the music sounds all the same, all presented as a catchy beat line and saturated in images of fast cars, money, and the objectification of women. the superficial references (lyrics?) and stereotyping make it easy for kids to grab onto.

today's hip hop is such a far cry from Grand Master Flash's "The Message" --- done in the 1980s, an example of early "rap" which has structure and for all its generalization (i.e. smut) a simple plotline. art, no. but at least the bulk of the song centers around a definable rhyme scheme, which spoke of black folks having trouble obtaining employment in go-go Wall Street times.

hip hop, with its manufactured beats and rhymes, basks in sexist remarks and the glory of drug dealers and unheeded materialism. while music doesn't owe us a book of virtues, if hip hop dares to be great and rise to art form, it will give the listener something to chew on, a profundity of thought line, concealed or evident, which at present it is not.

[dramasnot6]

hip hop, with its manufactured beats and rhymes, basks in sexist remarks and the glory of drug dealers and unheeded materialism. while music doesn't owe us a book of virtues, if hip hop dares to be great and rise to art form, it will give the listener something to chew on, a profundity of thought line, concealed or evident, which at present it is not.

Very much agreed. It disgusts me how these horribly sexist and prejudice messages are being delivered to young people. Teenagers already embody a strong id, no need to exacerbate it with graphic and crude popular culture.

[Shadowsarin]

There is nothing inherently wrong with rap if it would clean up its values. Now it doesn't have to be spic and span. Certainly rock isn't, but currently it is way out there.

I think the biggest problem that rap seems to have is people generelising it to its extremities. Yes, there are some rappers who go about preeching about how great sexism is, for example I'm sure most of us know the whole '*****es and ho's' steriotype and all. But how about you compair that the following lyrics:

WARNING - The following lyrics are REALLY NOT NICE.

I´m a prevert in the nation
Teaching yer children all about the sex education
In the school system
I´m a mentor
I´ll make yer daughters ****
Red and sore

She´s just 13
With torpedo t**s
Hey Dennis Ruley
Ain´t that the ****

She´s into sex education
And I am the biggest pervert teacher in the nation
Your daughter she´s mine
So fresh off the vine

The Mentors were a metal band that formed in 1976, long before Hip Hop gained the social stronghold it has today.

Now, another example: Violence

This is one of the most extreme examples I have come across.

Once again, these lyrics arn't nice.

they kicked her until they cracked her ribs and she stopped moving
blood leaking through the cloth, she cried silently
and then they all proceeded to rape her violently
Billy was meant to go first, but each of them took a turn
ripping her up, and choking her until her throat burned
a broken jaw mumbled for god but they weren't concerned
when they were done and she was lying bloody, broken and broos
one of them ni**az pulled out a brand new twenty-two
they told him that she was a witness of what she'd gone through
and if he killed her he was guaranteed a spot in the crew
he thought about it for a minute, she was practicly dead
and so he leaned over and put the gun right to her head

Now obviously, that is really bad. But compair it with the Death Metal band Cannibal Corpse:

WARNING - THESE ARE REALLY REALLY NOT NICE

Through my anatomy, dwells another being
Rooted in my cortex, a servant to its bidding
Brutality now becomes my appetite
Violence is now a way of life
The sledge my tool to torture
As it pounds down on your forehead

Eyes bulging from their sockets
With every swing of my mallet
I smash your ****ing head in, until brains seep in
through the cracks, blood does leak
distorted beauty, catastrophe
Steaming slop, splattered all over me

---

I was once a man before I transformed
into this molester, freshly deceased children
You have born, torn by my rape
The dead are not safe, the lifeless child corpse
I will violate

Pleasure from the dead, complete satisfaction
I open the coffin
Sick thoughts run through my head as I stare
At the dead, over and over, I can't escape
I begin the dead sex, licking her young, rotted orifice
I c** in her cold ****, shivering with ecstasy
for nine days straight I do the same
She becomes by dead, decayed child sex slave
her neck I hack, cutting through the back
I use her mouth to eject

I'm really sorry to quote such lyrics on here, but for comparisons sake I have. I'm also really sorry if I've offended anyone too.

Now, next set of lyrics. These are rap:

Excuse me Miss, can we chat for a second
I'd ask how you doin', but you fine I reckon
Wait, do you have a man, cause I aint' into home-wreckin
No?. .Aiight cool just checkin
Look, from a hundred yards you caught my eye
An all my boys said I didn't have the heart to say hi
I'd like to have your number you don't have ta give it now
But if you diss me while they lookin I'm a never live it down
Y'know what I mean, Aww damn, my name's Will
Maxine. Pleasure to meet you, look here's the deal
Can I sit? Thanks, now I don't mean to objectify
But this the metaphore that crossed my mind
You sweet, good enough to eat
Make a brother wanna TLC--Creep
A brother can't sleep
It's like a kid fallin for you
So here's my own private nickname, I'm a call you

Hang on a second...those lyrics aren't violent or evil...Something must be wrong here!

Or maybe steriotypes are a bad thing.


Erm, now I've got that out of my system, the topic question.

To quote the definition of art on Wikipedia (I'm sure someone has already done this)

Art is an application of a creativity that has some form of appreciative value, usually on the basis of aesthetic value or emotional impact. Much about art is controversial, including what specific cases can be considered such.

Well, that about sums it up for me. I know it takes a lot of tallent and creativity to MC and DJ. I know several rap songs appreciate and enjoy, and I know several rap songs that touch me emotionally.

Rap has as much claim to be art as does any other form of music.

I did the best job I could to censor the lyrics, including several words the filter didn't pick up on. Once again, I'm really sorry if you take offence to them.

[ghideon]

This has actually turned into an important and quite learned thread. I take my hat off to all.

I agree with a great deal of what has already been written. I think that some issues can be further clarified.

When I think of hip-hop I think of both the sexist,violent,bs that we all have acknowledged exists in large bounty. But I also think of the pure hip-hop, what the music could be if one simply applied it's principles(particular forms of beat, use of DJ turntable collaboration, particular linguistic forms) in an ideal sense. And yes I think of quite a few artists and raps that come close to expressing the true essence of this music.

I have been deeply moved by quite a few hip-hop songs but I have done time, been on the street, was poor, am poor and have lived within the African American community my entire life. I have looked out a window in a yellow walled cell and watched the cars and trucks and people all going and coming. I have seen my mother sleep on the streets because she was too far gone to take care of herself. I have heard too many stories from people I love that are nothing but tales of rage and despair. I do not know one black man in my life right now who has not done time or known a close relative who has done hard time. And so what a song about "the trash in the street and the punk cop on the beat" means to you may be so different then what it means to me.

One of my deepest concern is that each one of us admits that all they have to base their opinions on is what they have learned, read, heard, saw, been taught and what they have lived through. Given that reality it is, imho, close to impossible to make absolute statements when it comes to subjective issues. And the determination of the value or worth of a particular form of music is by its very nature a subjective not absolute determination. It is not like "the sun rises" or even "Picasso is one of the most important artists of the 20th century." The statements are is supported by tons of objective evidence.

But the debate about hip-hop that is going on here seems to me to be much more about our own personal consciousness and how we now, at this moment in time, see and conceptualize the world we live in.

I feel confident about the above proposition because it seems to be easily verified.

If someone writes, that at this point in time hip-hop does not give the listener something "to chew on, a profundity of thought line, concealed or evident."

How can that be an absolute? How confident are we that when Joe, Suzy or Paul listen to a particular beat that nothing important, deep, is going on? I can certainly listen to a song and find nothing there. However, how can I verify that nobody else is finding depth?

The popularity of video games, text messages, the whole sum of this society's pop culture...by definition we are looking at trends that have vast appeal. But something can have both breadth and depth. The two, although certainly not always evident, are not mutually exclusive.

I would even suggest that when something becomes important to millions of people there must be depth going on.

Isn't that the real problem? Like it, love it, hate it the truth is that everything from Jerry Springers TV antics (which I find literally impossible to watch) to the popularity of World Wrestling is an objective fact in the USA. Now I can not simply accept that millions of human beings are stupid, lazy, or really fundamentally different then I am. And if that is true then whatever the reason is that so many watch such "junk" is worthy of a great deal of reasoned, dare I say compassionate, discussion, analysis and debate.

If it were simply the case of a whole nation of idiots then wouldn't that make everything pretty cut and dry. The truth is that the only realy valid method of determining the reason for the popularity of, for example, violent hip-hop is to ask those who are listening. And I mean really ask with respect and attention. Not the kind of rhetorical game where somebody might ask James "So why do you like this violent, superficial music? Huh?" No. I mean asking because you, we, do not need to know and we want to know. In fact, we need to know.

And we do not.
Anybody reading this post or any of my other posts where I have discussed some of my background is free to ask me questions. There is nothing stopping anybody from asking me, or others, why they do find this music important. Either there are no questions being asked because we are not in the habit of asking each other such questions. Or we believe that we already have enough information or experience that asking is besides the point.
Well, I say that the value of hip-hop is not determined by how much information one has, so no matter how many books you have read it is not enough. It is determined by experience and in this case I believe it is imperative that we ask those with profoundly different backgrounds what the music means to them.

Otherwise, we may think we know and yet in truth be lost.

[dramasnot6]

"One of my deepest concern is that each one of us admits that all they have to base their opinions on is what they have learned, read, heard, saw, been taught and what they have lived through. Given that reality it is, imho, close to impossible to make absolute statements when it comes to subjective issues. And the determination of the value or worth of a particular form of music is by its very nature a subjective not absolute determination. It is not like "the sun rises" or even "Picasso is one of the most important artists of the 20th century." The statements are is supported by tons of objective evidence.

But the debate about hip-hop that is going on here seems to me to be much more about our own personal consciousness and how we now, at this moment in time, see and conceptualize the world we live in.

I feel confident about the above proposition because it seems to be easily verified."

If your meaning was that we only interpret hip hop this way because of our own context, i completely agree. I have not "lived on the street" before, I have spoken to people who have in my volunteer work though. But jsut because people do not have a first hand experience in poverty and , for lack of a better term, "ghetto life" does not make them blind to the issues in the world and the horrific nature of the content of many hip hop songs. I personally am a big fan of songs of rebellion and revolution. But there is a very thick line between social revolution(sticking it to the man ) and just plain inappropriate and disgusting material. Look at the lyrics shadow posted. I could never believe the act of rape to have any positive connotations ever. Yet in hip hop it is sung by singers who are portrayed as "cool", giving it positive connotations and youth very wrong imnpressions. I think, no matter what context you have, rape and sexism to that extreme should be looked at as an immoral and wrong act.

[Logos]

General Mod note:
let's not get into quoting/posting a lot of explicit lyrics here, mmmkay?
please remember the forum rules, especially #1 and #3.
thanks.

[Comrade Ahab]

ok, so it has become quite clear as i read this thread that neither side is going to change its mind, however, the fact that anyone would try to put restrictions on a definition of art seems counter-productive. what makes art what it is, is that it continues to be progressive and provokes a reaction. moreover, art is personal. what one person considers to be art may be what another considers ''smut''. given this, no one should be brazen enough to assume that they alone can put distinctions on what is or is not art.

here are some thought provoking lyrics by a hip-hop group known as 'binary star' expressing what they see wrong with much of today's ''hip-pop'' music scene:

"Honest Expression"

I ain't hardcore, I don't pack a nine millimeter
Most of y'all gangsta rappers ain't hardcore neither
Whoever gets mad, then I'm talkin' 'bout you
Claimin you fear no man, but never walk wit' out crew
Where I'm from, your reputation don't mean jack
So what, you pack gats and you sell fiends crack
You ain't big time, my man
You ain't no different from the next cat in my neighborhood who did time
Rhyme after it's the same topic
What makes you think your hardcore 'cause you was raised in the projects?
Broke-*** finally got a hundred in your pocket
Now your on the mic, spittin' money's no object
What you say is bullcrap, if you wasn't wit' your crew
Or wasn't drunk off the brew, would you still pull gats?
You need to stop fronting or your headed for self-destruction.

Yeah, today's topic, is self-destruction
I ain't talkin' 'bout the KRS-One discussion
I'm talkin' 'bout the one-too-many ignorant suckers
Lyin' on the mic to my sisters and brothers
Every time you listen to the radio
All you hear is nonsense, they never play the bomb ****
Everything that glitters ain't gold
And every gold record don't glitter, that's for damn sure.

(Scratching Voices
"Y'all need to be cool as ****"
"Tryin' to teach you from the heart"
"Y'all rambling on, and ain't sayin' nothing"
"I'm busy in the mind"
"I'll go invent, I think I'll elevate my mental"

(Interlude)
See cats got confused somewhere man (confused)
About what hip-hop was, you know what I'm sayin'
Or what hip-hop is, (it's business yo) you know it
It's all business (its big money, know what I'm sayin'
that's all these cats about)
You know that's bull****, right? That's nigga talk, nigga talk
But if you want to make money though.
I got it broke down though, I got it broke down, (break it down yo)
You got hip-hop, then you got hip-pop.
Hip-pop?
Hip-pop.
Alright, (but a lot of cats want pop)
Yes. (know what I'm sayin')
It used to be real hip hop.
You got the top forty version of hip-hop.

I still got something else, something else that I wanna get off my chest
What? (know what I'm sayin'?)


How many cats you know
Speak the ill-legit rhyme after rhyme diligent
Eighty-five percent represent ignorant
Either you're innocent or guilty,
Some of my favorite emcees fell off
It damn near killed me
Lookin' at the kids that was true hip-hop
Nowadays them cats don't even do hip-hop
Rap got 'em brainwashed, with cats that don't last
And five minutes of fame, that's when it's a shame
Seein' real emcees tryin' to imitate rappers
If you ask me, they goin' out ***-backwards
Trading in respect to push a fat Lex'
Puff rhymin' on the remix, what's next?
It hurts so bad, I wanna smack 'em
My favorite crew members break up
Turn around and join whack ones.

This is dedicated to you hip-hop hypocrites
Droppin' whack songs, like you don't give a ****
I ain't got nothin' against nobody trying to make a decent living
It ain't the money that's the issue
Only if that's the reason why these cats ain't makin' decent music
That's when I got beef wit' you
And I'm a bring it to you like never
Go ahead, call me player-hater if it makes you feel better
Try to jump my crew if you cats feel boggy
You need to wake up, and smell the damn coffee.



Now this is not to say that i haven't enjoyed reading all of the posts so far; discussing these issues can be intriguing, but it's important to remember that the definition of art isn't etched in stone.

[Comrade Ahab]

sorry bout the explicit lyrics. i just took them from a different site. won't happen again.

[ghideon]

Dramas et al:

I would actively support any inteligent and forceful statement or act that rebukes, in no uncertain terms, the sexism/vilolence against women that is glorified in rap and hip-hop songs.

I also have to own up to the fact that I am a man and so, while I can try to understand what a woman feels in relation to songs about rape, the truth is I will never be able to actually switch places and know from the inside out.

I am white. I assume most others here are although please correct me if that is mistaken. However, whatever may be the case, I do see a difficulty in terms of white people and insitutions coming down on the glorification of violence in a music that is rooted in the African-American community. It is not that I would say that nobody but black people are worthy of their comments. And certainly gender has to be taken into a huge consideration as well. It is simply that given the amount of violence blacks have suffered from the hands of whites the whole issue of violence needs becomes complex both in terms of class, gender and race.

[dramasnot6]

Hmm...well there are quite a few white rappers emerging today ghideon, and singing about the same content. There are definetly many stereotypes and racist messages about different races of people in songs, they are pretty unfair to most people.