NTHS - Animal Farm

[il-janus]

why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.

p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.)[/QUOTE]


I believe that communisim can never work. Its basic idea is equality. Can you define equality? Because I believe that equality is one of those abstract nouns that can never be defined. Whats equal for you, may not be equal for me. It will only end up in Animal Farm's most popular quote: "All Animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

[Triskele]

Boxer is the true hero of the novel. From the beginning he is the sole inspiration of all the animals. The eloquence of Snowball and Squeeler do not have a lasting effect; it is the naive horse with great strength and will that in reality keeps the farm going through its difficulties.

Boxer represents a faithful and hardworking citizen, where in his great simplistic example he serves as an inspiration to the people. Whenever something goes wrong it is not Squeeler's speeches that makes the animal struggle even more, but it is Boxer's favourite phraze "I will work harder". The novel reaches its end with his departure. Their spirit has now gone and the animals have nothing else to fight for. Like any hero, boxer is betrayed, and it is at this stage where all animals can fully understand that they were constantly being betrayed themselves.

Orwell depicts Boxer as the only good leader in the novel. He does not lead the citizens through totalitarian governments, and he never enforces any law or ideal. Boxer unconsciously knows from the beginning that retirement age will never come true, yet he struggles to the end to elevate his love for his "country". He does not question, nor can he engage in philosophical arguments, but his will and love stand clearly in contrast with the corrupt totalitarian government that leads them.

yes! yes! yes! boxer is a perfect example of someone who embraced a socialist culture, he is hardworking and selfless, but the culture changed to a totalitarian regime and his hardworking and kind ethos was no longer an esential attribute, and his strength caused the dictators(pigs) to use up his strength to further their own needs, an that became the end of boxer. society must advance for the individual to stand a chance, elsewhys the individual must employ the praxis of their ideologis and force society to change.

[juliagoolia]

Il-janus and Triskele- you do realize that this is a 9th grade discussion, right?

[CheyRose]

no no i LOVE Julia more!!!

[juliagoolia]

[Triskele]

why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.

[/QUOTE=il-janus]p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.) [/QUOTE]


I believe that communisim can never work. Its basic idea is equality. Can you define equality? Because I believe that equality is one of those abstract nouns that can never be defined. Whats equal for you, may not be equal for me. It will only end up in Animal Farm's most popular quote: "All Animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"[/QUOTE]

yes, but it is in direct progression from socialism, which is a class based society. so through education, employment, pro-rated fines and welfare programs the govornment offers equal opportunity, it is up to the individual to advance himself. as marx said "the praxis of philosophical thought oft contradicts itself". to me this means that actions that we thought about beforehand don't neccisarily mean that the result of those actions coicides with the ideologies theoretically used for the actions employment. the idividual must be free to follow their own path in life. the human ethos is defined by decisions, you are what you think. so if all humans are equal, they all must freely choose this state, which is why socialism, or a social welfare state must come first.

[ben lurie]

i agree with what il-janus was saying about how what may be equal to one person is not neccesarily what another person considers equality. But heres an interesting question...Do people even WANT equality? I have to go now so i dont have time to say anything about it but tell me wut u think

[Triskele]

i think that equality is an idea that can be applied to any area of life, the thing is, socialists aren't trying to enforce equality, just begin everyones life with the same opportunity. i do think that many people don't strive for equality, but more for a life, as long as everyone has a happy existence, nobody would care if another had a better car.

[Triskele]

Il-janus and Triskele- you do realize that this is a 9th grade discussion, right?

yup, and i am in high school too (albeit a senior). this really isn't that advanced, just wikipedia socialism and you can talk intelligently about this stuff,( i have done other reading but wikipedia offers an excellent synopsis)

[jenny16]

hey thanks andrew for answering my questions!!!! Muchas Gracias (as they say it in mexico! hahaha) ok but the whole russian revolution???? what even happened during that?? is the russian revolution like Animal Farm, but not really animal farm??? wow, i really sound like an idiot! oh well guess i was born that way!

[juliagoolia]

Triskele- Sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion and clearing things up for those who do not understand. I guess I was just getting a bit overwhelmed by all of the long posts. Again, I apologize.

[juliagoolia]

yes, but it is in direct progression from socialism, which is a class based society. so through education, employment, pro-rated fines and welfare programs the govornment offers equal opportunity, it is up to the individual to advance himself. as marx said "the praxis of philosophical thought oft contradicts itself". to me this means that actions that we thought about beforehand don't neccisarily mean that the result of those actions coicides with the ideologies theoretically used for the actions employment. the idividual must be free to follow their own path in life. the human ethos is defined by decisions, you are what you think. so if all humans are equal, they all must freely choose this state, which is why socialism, or a social welfare state must come first.

What you are talking about is only possible in a society where everyone is equal to begin with, where everyone has the capability to make any decision and follow through with it. You are not taking into account the different races, genders, salaries, languages, dissabilities, and beliefs that people have, and how those qualities will always cause somebody somewhere to look down upon them. Now, if we were all clones with the same exact features, languages, religions, ideas, and thoughts, we might be able to live in equality. But it would only take one little flaw in any one of those clones to screw things up; they would either be ridiculed and looked down upon by the others, or use their individuality to rise to the top. We are not clones- we are human beings- and as long as we remain human, perfect equality will never be possible.

[Triskele]

What you are talking about is only possible in a society where everyone is equal to begin with, where everyone has the capability to make any decision and follow through with it. You are not taking into account the different races, genders, salaries, languages, dissabilities, and beliefs that people have, and how those qualities will always cause somebody somewhere to look down upon them. Now, if we were all clones with the same exact features, languages, religions, ideas, and thoughts, we might be able to live in equality. But it would only take one little flaw in any one of those clones to skrew things up; they would either be ridiculed and looked down upon by the others, or use their individuality to rise to the top. We are not clones- we are human beings- and as long as we remain human, perfect equality will never be possible.

the purpose of a socialist govornment is to equalize these factors, or at least limit their influence so that they don't have a crippling grip on peoples lives. you see, read up on social welfare govornments in northern europe. the EU, and skandinavian countries are making increadible progress in equalizing these areas. the concept of communism is to celebrate our unique qualities. no utopean socialist ever called for uniformity, just equality, or at least the potential for it. two people can lead very different lives, and have very different ideas and still have relatively similar economic freedoms...

[Triskele]

Triskele- Sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion and clearing things up for those who do not understand. I guess I was just getting a bit overwhelmed by all of the long posts. Again, I apologize.

its all good, i suppose i am getting a bit off topic, but since its relavent to the book i suppose its ok. way to go on the response, well said, and an idea worth considering even if i don't agree with its message (slightly pessimistic)

also, since you clearly don't view communism as a possibility, what kind of govornment would you employ in place of capitalism (which is an economic system based on the gap b/w rich and poor)

[ben lurie]

I think that if communism or a government based off of it were to ever work, you would need to start from ground zero. you could not take america and say BAM!!! your all equal. Again i think you would need a select group of individuals that are first and foremost intelligent and for lack of a better word, nice. I kind of think that people do not really want to be equal. On a cultural level, a religious level and individual people do not always crave equality. Think of what your life might be like with everyone equal, all races and all religions. It would be good but then again you have uneducated nasty people equal with intelligent, honest and nice people. Somesort of clensing (i know its an evil word) would have to take place. Some people just shouldnt be equal to others, like nasty people. but then again, is it our society that creates these nasty people because of the inequalities and the gap b/w rich and poor and race. I believe that if a country could begin new, with select people, that is the only way communism would work.