i dissagree with julia i think that the pigs were threatened by boxer because he was such in influence to the other animals if he rebeled the animals would follow and i think that scared the pigs so even though he was the best contributer he was also a threat.
Davidson K Harley
I dissagree with David.
If you have read the book, you will know that Boxer's two main beliefs were "I will work harder" and "Comrade Napoleon is always right". Napoleon was thrilled by this, especially since the other animals looked up to Boxer and would follow his lead by accepting the concept of animalism. David, Boxer was almost 12 years old- the age of retirement. However, he worked himself far too hard and eventually was injured. The pigs claimed that they had sent for the best veterenarian to take Boxer away to be treated, but actually sent for a van to take him to the glue factory. They DID NOT take him away because he was a threat- Boxer was old and weak, and no amout of resting would change that. He was looking forward to a pleasant life in retirement, and his only regret was not being able to contribute to the finishing of the windmill. The cruel pigs stabbed Boxer in the back; he put in a lifetime of effort with the belief that they would care for him in his elderly years, but instead they sent him to his death. I hope this clears things up a bit.
Last edited by juliagoolia; 12-26-2006 at 02:27 PM.
**juliagoolia
i agree with julia.....boxer was getting to the retirement age and once he got to that age he would be no use to the far because he could not contribute to the farm. so the pigs decided to go, and as julia said, stab him in the back. boxer only wanted to contribute to the building of the farm. but the pigs went and sent him to the glue factory.
Also remember how they took away the part of the field that was going to be reserved for retired animals. So to the pigs they would only be taking up space.
Sickness and healing are in every heart; death and deliverance in every hand.- Orson Scott Card
ok, i'm a little bit confused and have a couple questions.
1. ok so how do we know this book represents russia or whatever?
2. do the pigs talk to the humans, i mean literally talk to them?
SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEEEEEZZZZ!!!!!
EVERYONE HAVING AN AWESOME BREAK SO FAR????? I MISS YOU ALL!!!!
Stuff
Well, pretty much we knew that this was about the Russian Revolution because Ms.Paul told us. But that doesn't mean we would not have found out later.
And yes, the pigs do literally talk to the humans. Remember at the end? They were all sitting around the dinner table telling jokes and celebrating and blah blah blah.
And going back to Mitchell/Kristen/Julia/Davidson's arguement, I believe that they got rid of Boxer because of the retirement thing. They knew that he knew he could retire and that he probably was going to. They also remembered the benefits that retiree's would get when they did retire. So to ensure that he would never tax their luxuries, they got rid of him. By this I mean that if he had retired they would have had to give him more food which meant they had less. So it would have just been a nuisance to them and they didn't like that. So; Bye-Bye Boxer.
P.S. Ben
A P.J. Party? Were on the internet....
It wouldn't work!!!
.............Duh...........
Core reality carries no reality. It is a figure of speech self validating truth. It has no basis of knowledge or experience, and creates no basis of knowledge or experience. A core reality is an insight, possibly accessed only through meditation and wisdom contemplation, but definitely not with feelings and efforts
I agree, Andrew.
**juliagoolia
slumberparty!!!!!!!!!
kind of off topic...but andrew, i think that ben ment a slumber party NOT over the internet. i think it would be tons of fun!
In regard to the whole boxer issue, i believe none of you are completley right. The pigs DID think of boxer as a threat, but not directly. Anyone who has a lot of control over the other animals is a threat to the pigs. Boxer commanded a lot of respect and everyone trusted him, a lot of the times more than the pigs. Although boxer did have is "napoleon is always right motto", he was still a threat due to the power he commanded. Had he ever questioned napoleon, many animals would be with him and it would be difficult for the pigs to deal with. They canned him because he was old and couldn't work but also because they didnt want him getting in the way, questioning what the pigs did in his old age. Had he not been such a good worker, they would have found a way to get rid of him earlier.
friggin dialup
Im starting with #2 but thats ok.
Can communism work?
I do not believe communism can work in the given time with todays people. For a million reasons , but ill try to get in a few important ones. I am guessing that communism could work on a small scale with select peoiple, a society of maybe 400 or so. But with only 400 people you would lose so much. Like ms. Paul was saying, one type of dress, one pair of pants stuff like that, no variety. That might b a good thing to give up for a better form of government but the lack of variety goes far beyond that. If you were to try communism on a larger scale, there are too many faults in peoples personalities that would destroy the perfection needed for communism to work. Greed is the main trait that is present in almost every person that would mess up how everything worked. Some would say it is taught into us due to our society that we live in, others believe that we are born with it, but deep inside us is a powerful survical instict that promotes selfishness and greed. The best way to stay a live is to get rid of all the competition and work for u and only u. Communism relies on people being caring and helping others. It would only work if somehow humans could change, or all the bad people could be kept out, and we are far from that. But would we want communism? A capitalist system sounds pretty great when your a multi millionaire and have anything you could ever dream of, but from a poor laborers point of view it kind of sucks. Being in the middle myself, I think there are definite changes that need to be made in our system, but communism is an impractical form of government and is overall NOT the answer.
i love julia!?
"Is that even legal?"
I also think that the book was not about how communism did or will fail. Its about how communism in russia was butchered an ruined by Stalin. In russia, and in animal farm, it was more of a dictatorshoip that communism.
hey ben,Originally Posted by ben lurie
why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.
p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.)
Boxer is the true hero of the novel. From the beginning he is the sole inspiration of all the animals. The eloquence of Snowball and Squeeler do not have a lasting effect; it is the naive horse with great strength and will that in reality keeps the farm going through its difficulties.
Boxer represents a faithful and hardworking citizen, where in his great simplistic example he serves as an inspiration to the people. Whenever something goes wrong it is not Squeeler's speeches that makes the animal struggle even more, but it is Boxer's favourite phraze "I will work harder". The novel reaches its end with his departure. Their spirit has now gone and the animals have nothing else to fight for. Like any hero, boxer is betrayed, and it is at this stage where all animals can fully understand that they were constantly being betrayed themselves.
Orwell depicts Boxer as the only good leader in the novel. He does not lead the citizens through totalitarian governments, and he never enforces any law or ideal. Boxer unconsciously knows from the beginning that retirement age will never come true, yet he struggles to the end to elevate his love for his "country". He does not question, nor can he engage in philosophical arguments, but his will and love stand clearly in contrast with the corrupt totalitarian government that leads them.
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