Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

[dramasnot6]

I was about to start something on the second act.

we havent finished act1 though...gah..gotta get reading if we have....

Also, i know its really early on, but could i suggest Othello for the next read? Ive just never read it and it seems really good for analysis, particulary male and female roles.

[Virgil]

Drama, Next read will probably be Twelfth Night. And then in January we hav started a forum on Shakespeare play reads. The first scheduled will The Taming of the Shrew.

[Virgil]

Drama this is the new Shakespeare Discussion Group forum that will start in January: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=20513

It lists the for year reads.

[SleepyWitch]

I'm halfway through the second act...

Caes: Welcome to Rome

Ant. Thanke you

Caes Sit

Ant. Sit sir

Caes: Nay then

this is when Caesar and Antony meet for the first time in the play. They can't even agree on trivial matters, like who's to sit down first. This doesn't bode too well, does it?

Caesar. I do not much dislike the matter, but
The manner of his speech: for't cannot be,
We shall remaine in friendship, our conditions
So diffring in their acts. Yet if I knew,
What Hoope should hold vs staunch from edge to edge
Ath' world: I would persue it

Agri. Giue me leaue Caesar

Caesar. Speake Agrippa

Agrippa's suggestion (that Antony should marry Caesar's sister) is clearly rehearsed. Do these lines mean that Caesar knows about the plan and gives Agrippa his cue to give his little speech? Like "erhem, if I only knew what to do?" *coughcough nudge nudge*?

The city cast
Her people out upon her; and Antony,
Enthroned i' the market-place, did sit alone,
Whistling to the air; which, but for vacancy,
Had gone to gaze on Cleopatra too,
And made a gap in nature.
...
....
Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinite variety.

hehe, Antony ...did sit alone whistling to the air..
our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?

[Virgil]

Agrippa's suggestion (that Antony should marry Caesar's sister) is clearly rehearsed. Do these lines mean that Caesar knows about the plan and gives Agrippa his cue to give his little speech? Like "erhem, if I only knew what to do?" *coughcough nudge nudge*?

It struck me as rehearsed too, although there's no evidence that it is. But what's interesting about that is Ceasar's committment to making the empire work. He will make peace with Antony and offer his sister if that's what it will take. We know shortly after that Antony is not serious about his responsibilities, or if he is, he's of two minds. Shortly after this scene, although he's going to marry Octavia, he has every intention of going back to Cleo.

our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?

Crush? I think he's hot for her. Or not just her, but the whole Egyptian sensual life. I think Enobarbarus's character parallels Antony's, but in a lesser way. Both are epicureans, but while Antony has a element of nobility, Eno is of lower order. He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.

[SleepyWitch]

It struck me as rehearsed too, although there's no evidence that it is.

our tutor said, the speech is much too well-structured to be spontaneous. For one thing, it's full of stylistic devices (e.g. the blue passages).

AGRIPPA
To hold you in perpetual amity,
To make you brothers, and to knit your hearts
With an unslipping knot, take Antony
Octavia to his wife; whose beauty claims
No worse a husband than the best of men;
Whose virtue and whose general graces speak
That which none else can utter. By this marriage,
All little jealousies, which now seem great,
And all great fears, which now import their dangers,
Would then be nothing: truths would be tales,
Where now half tales be truths: her love to both
Would, each to other and all loves to both,
Draw after her. Pardon what I have spoke;
For 'tis a studied, not a present thought,
By duty ruminated.

---> Agrippa has planned this. But whether Caesar was in on it is a different matter, of course.

He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.

without the humour? I think he's extremely funny He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Or, if you borrow one another's love for the
instant, you may, when you hear no more words of
Pompey, return it again: you shall have time to
wrangle in when you have nothing else to do.

MARK ANTONY
Thou art a soldier only: speak no more.

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
That truth should be silent I had almost forgot.

[Virgil]

our tutor said, the speech is much too well-structured to be spontaneous. For one thing, it's full of stylistic devices (e.g. the blue passages).
---> Agrippa has planned this. But whether Caesar was in on it is a different matter, of course.

Oh yes, Agrippa even says that he's given this some thought. I thought you meant Ceasar. It seems as if Ceasar knows about the idea, but no where that I saw has he planned this.

without the humour? I think he's extremely funny He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour

Yes, Ok, but he's still no Falstaff.

[SleepyWitch]

i don't remember Falstaff too well, but yep.. I suppose Enobarbus's sense of humour is a bit more subtle/intellectual, although he says some bawdy things in Act I, as well.. but in general he's not as great a clown as Falstaff

[Virgil]

I wanted to point out something in Act II, Scene 2. The verbal exchange between Antony and Ceasar in a way parallels the exchange that Antony had with Cleo back in Act I, scene 3 but with a very important difference. In the scene with Cleo, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Cleo chastises him while Antony can barely get a word in inchwise. Here Ceasar also is chastising Antony, but notice the differece:

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I must be laugh'd at,
If, or for nothing or a little, I
Should say myself offended, and with you
Chiefly i' the world; more laugh'd at, that I should
Once name you derogately, when to sound your name
It not concern'd me.

MARK ANTONY
My being in Egypt, Caesar,
What was't to you?

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
No more than my residing here at Rome
Might be to you in Egypt: yet, if you there
Did practise on my state, your being in Egypt
Might be my question.

MARK ANTONY
How intend you, practised?

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You may be pleased to catch at mine intent
By what did here befal me. Your wife and brother
Made wars upon me; and their contestation
Was theme for you, you were the word of war.

MARK ANTONY
You do mistake your business; my brother never
Did urge me in his act: I did inquire it;
And have my learning from some true reports,
That drew their swords with you. Did he not rather
Discredit my authority with yours;
And make the wars alike against my stomach,
Having alike your cause? Of this my letters
Before did satisfy you. If you'll patch a quarrel,
As matter whole you have not to make it with,
It must not be with this.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You praise yourself
By laying defects of judgment to me; but
You patch'd up your excuses.

MARK ANTONY
Not so, not so;
I know you could not lack, I am certain on't,
Very necessity of this thought, that I,
Your partner in the cause 'gainst which he fought,
Could not with graceful eyes attend those wars
Which fronted mine own peace. As for my wife,
I would you had her spirit in such another:
The third o' the world is yours; which with a snaffle
You may pace easy, but not such a wife.

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Would we had all such wives, that the men might go
to wars with the women!

MARK ANTONY
So much uncurbable, her garboils, Caesar
Made out of her impatience, which not wanted
Shrewdness of policy too, I grieving grant
Did you too much disquiet: for that you must
But say, I could not help it.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I wrote to you
When rioting in Alexandria; you
Did pocket up my letters, and with taunts
Did gibe my missive out of audience.

MARK ANTONY
Sir,
He fell upon me ere admitted: then
Three kings I had newly feasted, and did want
Of what I was i' the morning: but next day
I told him of myself; which was as much
As to have ask'd him pardon. Let this fellow
Be nothing of our strife; if we contend,
Out of our question wipe him.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You have broken
The article of your oath; which you shall never
Have tongue to charge me with.

LEPIDUS
Soft, Caesar!

MARK ANTONY
No,
Lepidus, let him speak:
The honour is sacred which he talks on now,
Supposing that I lack'd it. But, on, Caesar;
The article of my oath.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
To lend me arms and aid when I required them;
The which you both denied.

MARK ANTONY
Neglected, rather;
And then when poison'd hours had bound me up
From mine own knowledge. As nearly as I may,
I'll play the penitent to you: but mine honesty
Shall not make poor my greatness, nor my power
Work without it. Truth is, that Fulvia,
To have me out of Egypt, made wars here;
For which myself, the ignorant motive, do
So far ask pardon as befits mine honour
To stoop in such a case.

Sorry for the lengthy quote, but Antony clearly defends himself verbally and stands up to Ceasar. The difference is startling, and here Antony is actually admitting wrong doing on his part; he admits he "neglected" his duties. But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.

We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.

[SleepyWitch]

But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.

We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.

oi, Uncle Virgil, that's what I call the art of putting things in a nutshell
when I read the second act I thought "wow Antony is a totally different man" but it would have taken me 20 pages to define what I mean

where are Schoko, drama and PL? let's take a break and wait for them? (still stuck in act 2 myself)

[Virgil]

oi, Uncle Virgil, that's what I call the art of putting things in a nutshell
when I read the second act I thought "wow Antony is a totally different man" but it would have taken me 20 pages to define what I mean

where are Schoko, drama and PL? let's take a break and wait for them? (still stuck in act 2 myself)

Thanks. We'll wait. But I have some questions about Act II, Scene 7. It is an amazing scene that I beleive one has to actually see dramatized to get it's full effect. Reading it doesn't do it justice. I have a video of an A&C dramatisation and that scene is overwhelming visually. But frankly within the structure of the play I don't claim to understand it.

[msdirector]

Thanks. We'll wait. But I have some questions about Act II, Scene 7. It is an amazing scene that I beleive one has to actually see dramatized to get it's full effect. Reading it doesn't do it justice. I have a video of an A&C dramatisation and that scene is overwhelming visually. But frankly within the structure of the play I don't claim to understand it.

Hi Virgil! I'm back. Hi everyone... I'm new to this discussion but I've been reading and enjoying it and trying to catch up on my Antony and Cleopatra before I chimed in....

Act II, scene 7 is the scene in which the Triumverate meet with Pompey at the banquet on his galley. It is - or can be - a very visual scene, although I've seen it performed very simply as well.

Virgil, can you be more specific about what it is you don't understand about the scene...?

Arlene

[Virgil]

The scene does move the plot in any way. The resolution with Pompey occurs in the previous scene. If this scene were completely taken out, it would have no impact to the play. And yet, this is one of the longest scenes in the entire play. There has got to be more significance, especially since it is so visual and playful.

We see Lepidus drunk. But that really doesn't mean anything to either the Antony and Cleo sub-plot or the Antony and Ceasar rivalry.

We see that Pompey could have killed all three of the Triumpherate (sp?) and become Emperor of the world. But what's so important there. That has no significance either.

Now I have some ideas since I've kicked this around, but I would like to see what people come up with.

[Schokokeks]

aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie!

Really, Drama, you're such a sweetiiiie ! .

Yes, don't worry Schoky. I used to have the same trouble when I was our age with Shakespeare, and I'm a native english speaker. Has any of my comments helped? Or what do you think of them?

Well, funny thing is, we're reading Hamlet for class at the moment, and I don't find that half as difficult to concentrate on. Although the plot is very complex, too, of course, but somehow there I actually understand what's being said in every line.

Yes, all your comments are very helpful .
I have now completed the play, and am ready to go into the scenes in detail . This week, though, I'm a bit busy applying for a national scholarship, but I think I shall be able to come back tomorrow or Friday to post something serious.

[Virgil]

This week, though, I'm a bit busy applying for a national scholarship, but I think I shall be able to come back tomorrow or Friday to post something serious.

Oh please concentrate on that. That is really important. Good luck.

Perhaps some of you here have trouble with A&C because it's a play of middle aged characters ands middle age issues. Hamlet is a young person's play. At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney.