Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

[dramasnot6]

gah..im mis-spelling antony..sorry..its late here...

Now, for the love of Love and her soft hours,
Let's not confound the time with conference harsh:
There's not a minute of our lives should stretch
Without some pleasure now.
He is just smitten, isnt he?

[Virgil]

gah..im mis-spelling antony..sorry..its late here...

Now, for the love of Love and her soft hours,
Let's not confound the time with conference harsh:
There's not a minute of our lives should stretch
Without some pleasure now.
He is just smitten, isnt he?

Yes, smitten. But it seems more than just that too. "love of Love" and "lives should stretch/without some pleasure" Antony is absorbed with the pleasure of it. He has lived his life as a soldier, which is to say he has had to deny himself physical comforts and the easy life of court. Now he does not "a minute of [their] lives" to go by without pleasure. The change must be radical to his constitution, and at his age (upper middle age) the luxerious life feels so much better to the body (and I'm not talking about sex here) than to a young person.

[Schokokeks]

Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
* ANTONIUS forms an allience with LEPIDUS (due to the latter being rich, I think...)
* ANTONIUS, CAESAR and LEPIDUS reconcile & form a triumvirate
* ANTONIUS and CAESAR defeat Brutus and Cassius, the murderes of J. Caesar
* ANTONIUS meets CLEOPATRA at Cydnus
* Lucius (ANTONIUS'S brother) and Fulvia (ANTONIUS'S wife) prepare for war against CAESAR.
* Fulvia dies.
* ANTONIUS is married to OCTAVIA (CAESAR'S sister) to reconcile ANT. and CAESAR.
* CLEOPATRA gives birth to twins by ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS separates from OCTAVIA, returns to CLEOPATRA
* donations of Alexandria: ANTONIUS calls CLEOPATRA the "Queen of Kings" and CAESARION the "King of Kings" (thus kind of dividing the empire among them)
* upcoming war between CAESAR and ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS divorces OCTAVIA.
* battles of Actium and Alexandria: ANTONIUS is defeated.
* suicide of ANTONIA and CLEOPATRA.

Phew, what a story !

[Schokokeks]

Thank you for sharing the beautiful painting, Petrarch's Love. With that notion of Antony resembling Mars and being called the "triple pillar of the world", and Cleopatra pictured as a seducing Venus, I think it adds something almost heroic and epic to the tragedy.

As to the first scene:

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):

PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;

[dramasnot6]

Yes, smitten. But it seems more than just that too. "love of Love" and "lives should stretch/without some pleasure" Antony is absorbed with the pleasure of it. He has lived his life as a soldier, which is to say he has had to deny himself physical comforts and the easy life of court. Now he does not "a minute of [their] lives" to go by without pleasure. The change must be radical to his constitution, and at his age (upper middle age) the luxerious life feels so much better to the body (and I'm not talking about sex here) than to a young person.

Very good points there Virgil, i never even considered how his background as a soldier would fit into it . You mention also how his age plays into his appreciation of his lifestyle. Maybe, since as a soldier he has experiencd near-death so many times, his fear of a lurking end(possibly a foreshadowing???from what i recall he commited suicide, right?) also causes him to "live it up" while he can.

[dramasnot6]

Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
* ANTONIUS forms an allience with LEPIDUS (due to the latter being rich, I think...)
* ANTONIUS, CAESAR and LEPIDUS reconcile & form a triumvirate
* ANTONIUS and CAESAR defeat Brutus and Cassius, the murderes of J. Caesar
* ANTONIUS meets CLEOPATRA at Cydnus
* Lucius (ANTONIUS'S brother) and Fulvia (ANTONIUS'S wife) prepare for war against CAESAR.
* Fulvia dies.
* ANTONIUS is married to OCTAVIA (CAESAR'S sister) to reconcile ANT. and CAESAR.
* CLEOPATRA gives birth to twins by ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS separates from OCTAVIA, returns to CLEOPATRA
* donations of Alexandria: ANTONIUS calls CLEOPATRA the "Queen of Kings" and CAESARION the "King of Kings" (thus kind of dividing the empire among them)
* upcoming war between CAESAR and ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS divorces OCTAVIA.
* battles of Actium and Alexandria: ANTONIUS is defeated.
* suicide of ANTONIA and CLEOPATRA.

Phew, what a story !

Wow, thanks Cookie! That was great! I learned quite a bit from that summary.

[Petrarch's Love]

Back to scene I. Not only is she a tease, but she hits him where it hurts, almost challening his command and power. It is the reversal of imperium (1. Absolute rule; supreme power. 2. A sphere of power or dominion; an empire.), the Roman authority to command. What kind of a Roman is he here, one can ask?...
...Her teasing are subjects that hit hard. He's a married man and Cleo brings up his wife's emotions. What married man who's having an affair would want to have that brought up. And she then brings up his political equal and she characterizes him as a boy, but a boy who has the power to order Antony to do things. She is making him diminutive, and exerting her power. And she continues:

...It makes Antony blush, a grizzled soldier blush? She's in command, and he is in dotage.

Absolutely, she knows how to push his buttons. She can be really quite cruel sometimes. You almost have to wince for Antony. At the same time, I think something that's fantastic about this scene is that it both shows the way she exerts her power over Antony and the way she is simultaneously insecure and potentially at his mercy (though he doesn't realize it here). When she first berates him for blushing "when shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds," she's not only getting in a dig at him, but testing him to see if he really cares more for Fulvia than he does for her. Then when she turns around and says "Excellent falsehood!/ Why did he marry Fulvia and not love her?" she is not only needling him about his emotional relationship with his wife, but also betraying both her unease that he might actually still love Fulvia and her unease that perhaps he never did love Fulvia, since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.

[dramasnot6]

I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.

If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'

perhaps the political initiative she exhibits in some lines serves as a contrast with the emotional insecurity you mentioned, that is exhibited in other lines.

Possibly her insecurity is also derived from her losing Ceaser and fear of losing Antony. As i mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps Antony is concentrating on love for his fear of death. In turn, Cleopatra could also fear their death, but takes a less doubting approach by trying to prevent it through political strategy and wariness. The age difference is signifigant in this contrast of solution to fear of death, as Cleopatra is younger and she has less of an idea that death is inevitable. Where as Antony is much older and has much more experience with death, and therefore is more accepting of his fate.

[Petrarch's Love]

Schokokeks--Thanks for posting the chronology. That should be helpful for us.

I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):
Quote:
PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;

Yes, that's another key point where the question of who Antony is crops up in this scene. I find the use of the word "property" here interesting. The primary meaning of property in this context is as a distinguishing quality or attribute. I think there's also still the secondary sense of "property" as something owned at play here as well, so that it suggests not only that he is without noble attributes he formerly had, but also no longer own himself.

[Virgil]

Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated

Yes quite a story. I love Roman history. From Republic to Empire to decline and fall of the west, and even a thousand years later the east. Very fascinating.

But Schoky, I had never seen before that Antony and Octavius faught prior to defeating the conspirators and that Octavius lost. Are you sure about that?

[Virgil]

Absolutely, she knows how to push his buttons. She can be really quite cruel sometimes. You almost have to wince for Antony. At the same time, I think something that's fantastic about this scene is that it both shows the way she exerts her power over Antony and the way she is simultaneously insecure and potentially at his mercy (though he doesn't realize it here). When she first berates him for blushing "when shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds," she's not only getting in a dig at him, but testing him to see if he really cares more for Fulvia than he does for her. Then when she turns around and says "Excellent falsehood!/ Why did he marry Fulvia and not love her?" she is not only needling him about his emotional relationship with his wife, but also betraying both her unease that he might actually still love Fulvia and her unease that perhaps he never did love Fulvia, since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello. Now they have different other qualities too which of course makes the plays different. Here in this play I think Cleopatra is a Shakespeare manipulator type.

[Virgil]

I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.

Yes, I agree here too. There is a sense of insecurity with Cleopatra, and it's not in her social skills but her political status. The Roman empire is at the foot of her shores and she doesn't have the power to fight them. From a political point of view her only hope is to divide the Romans and place her hopes on Antony.

[dramasnot6]

shall we start on scene 2?

[dramasnot6]

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello. Now they have different other qualities too which of course makes the plays different. Here in this play I think Cleopatra is a Shakespeare manipulator type.

Indeed she is the penultimate femme fatale Virgil.

[Virgil]

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello.

Oops, I was writing faster than I was thinking last night. I meant Iago of the Othello play.