Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

[Petrarch's Love]

I am starting with Antony and Cleopatra today, and have borrowed a copy from the university library. They had lots of editions to choose from, and I picked the Arden, but now I find that there are so many on-page annotations packed with references to other works, discussions over 2 pages on one word, and lots of other information that disturb my flow of reading (we aren't reading this 100% scholarly anyway, are we...?). In case you do want to discuss the place of a specific comma, I'd stick to the Arden, of course , but if not I'll go and get another one. I had a quick look into the Oxford edition, which I liked better (more vocabulary explanations for the non-native me ).
Anyway, which edition are you using ?

Shokokeks--Yes, the Ardens are great scholarly editions but they can be a bit overboard for a casual read. I read all the major editions of the play when I was working on the annotations, and I really liked the footnotes the Bantam edition for being both concise and accessible. The Oxford is also good, but sometimes inclined to be a bit more academic like the Arden. Hope you find an edition you like.

[SleepyWitch]

*bump* For those who may have missed this thread, we are reading Antony and Cleopatra over the next few weeks and discussing it here.

"..the next few weeks" --> I'm reliefed my story is doing fine but I still haven't read any A&C... bad witchy

PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir ) but I haven't looked at it yet.

yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture

[Virgil]

Well, I'm not going to wait for the sleepy people. I'm going to start the conversation.


In the fist scene of Act I, we are introduced to Antony, first through an observation by one of his soldiers, Philo. And he sees this once great general transformed: "this dotage of our general's/O'erflows the measure" and

...his captain's heart,
Which in the scuffles of great fights hath burst
The buckles on his breast, reneges all temper,
And is become the bellows and the fan
To cool a gipsy's lust

And then enters Cleo and Ant and in most dramatazations they are pretty lovey-dovey, kissing throughout the scene and grasping each other.

And what we see is a lack of responsibility on Ant's part. Messengers come from Rome with news and he scoffs at them:

MARK ANTONY
Let Rome in Tiber melt, and the wide arch
Of the ranged empire fall! Here is my space.
Kingdoms are clay: our dungy earth alike
Feeds beast as man: the nobleness of life
Is to do thus; when such a mutual pair

I think the metaphor of "dungy earth" feeding beasts may be one of the central metaphors of the play. Out of rich earth one is fed to satisfaction so that the hard work of empire becomes a drag, a hinderence on one's work. The "nobleness of life" is not to build arches and kingdoms but to luxeriate in the love and sensuality of the woman.

The messenger is never even listened to.

There is more here (Cleopatra's personality), but for another post.

[Schokokeks]

Thank you, Petrarch's Love, I'll go and have a look at the Bantam editon then .

I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir ) but I haven't looked at it yet.
yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture

Tssssss, Fauli, really ! . Up to here, you had been my hero .

I'm done with the first act so far, and will be joining the discussion soon (staying at a friend's, don't have my copy at hand)

[Virgil]

Thank you, Petrarch's Love, I'll go and have a look at the Bantam editon then .


Tssssss, Fauli, really ! . Up to here, you had been my hero .

I'm done with the first act so far, and will be joining the discussion soon (staying at a friend's, don't have my copy at hand)

There's a copy on lit net authors.

[Petrarch's Love]

Well, it looks like Virgil has us started off on our discussion of scene one. As Virg. points out, some of the highlights to this scene are the speeches describing Antony's transformation from the warrior and empire maker to the lover. In the opening lines, and then throughout the play there are many allusions to the disarmament of Mars, the god of war, by Venus the god of love, which was a popular subject during the Renaissance. When starting this play I'm always reminded of the painting of Mars disarmed by Venus by Botticelli:


Another thing that you can start to see in this scene, and that a lot of people remark on about this play in general, is that the set speeches or soliloquays in the play are usually given to characters other than Antony and Cleopatra, while the two main characters spend a lot of their time in dialogue (often with each other). One thing we might want to think about as we're reading the play is where and how Shakespeare chooses to use dialogue, since it's really a great play for that.

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

[Petrarch's Love]

PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir ) but I haven't looked at it yet.

yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture

Ah, all we academic types fondly dream that someday we too will be famous enough that students will come to us with copies of the Oxford Advanced Dictionary looking for autographs. Seriously, though I understand the feeling. I remember being thrilled when I first came here and a very famous Shakespeare professor who's on our faculty (actually, the same prof. I'll be teaching with next term) signed the copy of the Renaissance drama anthology he recently edited and that we were using in class. There's something special about getting to meet the people who we normally think of as some sort of faceless authority on the page. The professor I refer to also incidently turned out to be a perfectly delightful human being who has parties at his house for his students on a regular basis, which is another perque of meeting scholars in the flesh rather than just reading their books.

[Janine]

Just stopping by to say hi, so you won't forget me and think I am not interested in the Sh discussions, not the case at all. I see you seem to be getting the discussion off the ground in some capacity. I don't think I will be participating very much this month - I have too much to do leading to the holidays, and I am reading other things I have to finish up first. I have not read A&C, or I would have participated. I will pick up on Twefth Night and the play for January.

[Virgil]

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

That ambiguity is clearly important, because in the next scene Antony comes to his senses. But we'll get to scene two.

Back to scene I. Not only is she a tease, but she hits him where it hurts, almost challening his command and power. It is the reversal of imperium (1. Absolute rule; supreme power. 2. A sphere of power or dominion; an empire.), the Roman authority to command. What kind of a Roman is he here, one can ask?

CLEOPATRA
Nay, hear them, Antony:
Fulvia perchance is angry; or, who knows
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'

Her teasing are subjects that hit hard. He's a married man and Cleo brings up his wife's emotions. What married man who's having an affair would want to have that brought up. And she then brings up his political equal and she characterizes him as a boy, but a boy who has the power to order Antony to do things. She is making him diminutive, and exerting her power. And she continues:

CLEOPATRA
Perchance! nay, and most like:
You must not stay here longer, your dismission
Is come from Caesar; therefore hear it, Antony.
Where's Fulvia's process? Caesar's I would say? both?
Call in the messengers. As I am Egypt's queen,
Thou blushest, Antony; and that blood of thine
Is Caesar's homager: else so thy cheek pays shame
When shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds. The messengers!

It makes Antony blush, a grizzled soldier blush? She's in command, and he is in dotage.

[SleepyWitch]

finished off my story (check it out )
will get started on A&C tonight.
sorry again.

[dramasnot6]

is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!

[Virgil]

is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!

Never too late. But we've just started. Come on in and contribute. I'm looking forward to your thoughts, since you've already read it once.

[dramasnot6]

Thanks! I havent read it cover to cover before though, maybe around 3/5altogether. But from what i have read i love the play and look forward to having a more serious read of it!

[dramasnot6]

just started reading first scene
i enjoy the contrast of Philos scolding of love and how it is distracting Anthony, with anthony and cleopatras "puppy eyes" swooning over eachother right after. That shakespeare...its only the beggning of the play and hes already charmed me!

[dramasnot6]

aww anthony is so love sick...i love how Shakespeare presents Cleo, the female, as the practical "lets get back to business" one. She must have had to been so tough to deal with all that at such a young age...