What created God?

[ShoutGrace]

I believe the following; Mankind created God when they needed a reason for civilization to behave.

So, there was a small group of Semitic geniuses who decided one day, 3,000 years ago, to write a large amount of literature purely with the intention of creating control and order, and who managed to not only overpower their entire civilization, but also the Roman empire.

Mankind did not create God - that is an overly simplistic view of things. Much more likely than that is the idea that some really dumb Semites 3,000 years ago had some strange natural phenomena happen to them, some "miraculous" occurences, and they over time developed a cultural explanation - God.

Seriously, were I an ignorant, uneducated beggar in that period and they'd walk up to me and say; if you live a sinful life, you'll go to a place where you'll burn for all eternity, I'd freak out. And then they'd say; Lead a good life and God, our Heavenly Father, will send you to Heaven - paradise.

Which religion says that?

It's a great way to manipulate criminals into changing their wicked ways. And since people wanted proof, they wrote the Bible.

This is even more frighteningly crude and simplistic - ask any anthropologist or sociologist. Writing the Bible, and any "creation" of a God myth, was not a conscious, socially motivated action - it was a cultural phenomena, taking many, many years.

Conveniently enough, no one knows for sure whether it documents the truth. But let's not get into that.

Define "truth." It is an astonishingly accurate historical document, which to date hasn't had any of its factual assertions refuted. Admittedly, some areas where the Bible claims history haven't yet been proven, but still haven't been disproven.

That and people are trying to understand things they'll never understand.

That's human nature, thankfully.

Why is the universe infinite? When was it created? Where do we come from? Humans are curious.

Surely this isn't a bad thing?

And since the beginning of time, they've had theories. Theories are fine, as long as you don't condemn those who disagree with your beliefs.

Hey, what are the odds? I agree with this statement.

I know millions of people lead good lives because they fear hell. Even those who don't really believe in God are afraid to stop going to church, etc because if they're wrong, they'll go to hell.

What kind of churches? What religion says that you have to "lead a good life" or "go to church" in order to avoid a "hell?"

[ennison]

That's the stuff. Keep shouting Grace.

[Guzmán]

So, there was a small group of Semitic geniuses who decided one day, 3,000 years ago, to write a large amount of literature purely with the intention of creating control and order, and who managed to not only overpower their entire civilization, but also the Roman empire.

Mankind did not create God - that is an overly simplistic view of things. Much more likely than that is the idea that some really dumb Semites 3,000 years ago had some strange natural phenomena happen to them, some "miraculous" occurences, and they over time developed a cultural explanation - God.

Which is more probable?

1 Moses went up mount Sinai (or whichever mount it was, i know little to nothing bout religion), the skies opened up or whatever and an omniscient omnipotent being showed up and dictated the law to him.

2 Moses went up there, thought a little about how to get his people organised, decided he needed to make some laws and thought up a few to make his people behave. To make them abide by this laws he had just created he made up the whole God appearing to him thing, so, by giving his new rules this sacred aura, noone would dare defy them.

In my opinion, number two is much more likely, plus it leaves Moses as a far more cunning guy than we would otherwise be led to believe. In fact I know pretty little about the Moses story, but if you look at all of it in this manner, leaving God out of it, it looks as if he was one hell of an intelligent and manipulative political leader. The parting of the waters trick would be a tough one to pull off though.

[ShoutGrace]

Which is more probable?

I think the theory I proffered earlier is most probable (given an atheistic viewpoint). That is why I took the time to post it.

1 Moses went up mount Sinai (or whichever mount it was, i know little to nothing bout religion), the skies opened up or whatever and an omniscient omnipotent being showed up and dictated the law to him.

How about: Moses went up to Mount Sinai - it's a long climb, so he was rather dehydrated and hungry - he had a hallucination, after which he created the stone tablets. Over the years the story changed, was embellished, and eventually his people ended up recording his story in it's present form.

I don't believe any of this for one second, but if I did take an atheistic stance, it would seem clear that mankind has not "created" God purposefully, with the intention of controlling masses.

Most atheists I've talked to - including those in these Forums - have said that God was (and is) the missing link for people who couldn't understand their environment, or couldn't deal with it. Remember, the whole "People invented a God who threw lightning when he was angry because they didn't understand the process of lightning?"

[ennison]

Moses was a man and had the faults of a man. He also had the strengths of a great leader but the story is not about a man. Moses is an agent not a power. Moses could have stayed in Egypt had he not made a choice. He made several choices which seem not to be entirely driven by self-interest. Finally, he himself didn't reach the Promised Land so his cunning, intelligence and success were all undercut by weaknesses. The thousands of wandering former slaves may have needed laws to govern them. But the tablets of stone do a great deal more than that - these other minor laws can be found elsewhere. The laws in stone have their limits too and were intended like that. I can see the sceptic finding the idea of it all being a con an attractive idea but that's because the sceptic is a sceptic.

[Turk]

Did religious texts create god or do people create religious texts? Or is the only way for people to know god through religious texts? Or maybe reason allows us to think about god without the smelly dogma. It's very clear that you haven't thought through these issues very much...Turk.

Religious texts sent by God. And nothing created God, he created everything.

There's no certain answer for second question. Because every individual is different, some may understand God's existence without texts maybe, but some may not understand it too. You can think and you can ask smart, interesting or silly questions without reading texts. But then you don't know in which era of history you living, in which era of history you are thinking. Questions you've asked, asked before you too. You may like to check/read this maybe; http://umcc.ais.org/~maftab/ip/pdf/bktxt/hayy.pdf

In this very interesting book, Hayy is symbol of pure reason-pure human, but there's Asal and Salaman too, and there's society.

You can call religion smelly dogma, and yeah, in some ways, some religions are smelly dogmas, full of clashes, full of irrationalist thoughts. But i don't think my belief is dogma, but some people can make it a dogma too. It depends on every individual's point of view.

And yeah, maybe as you said i may not have thought enough about this stuff, but since i've read a lot of religious/philosophic texts, i have the heritage of centuries, heritage of generations. And that's why i don't keep repeating questions that asked thousands of years ago.

[cuppajoe_9]

Religious texts sent by God. And nothing created God, he created everything.

Not to be a jerk, but that wasn't really an explaination.

[Turk]

Not to be a jerk, but that wasn't really an explaination.

Ok. Everyone is free to believe or not to believe. There's no certain prove of that religious texts (for me Kur'an) sent by God, if there would be certain prove of that everyone would believe it, but also there's no certain prove of that text didn't send by God too, i thought about it since long time, sometimes i was going to lose my belief, but at last i choosed to believe that. That's called faith. I don't claim religion is a scientific concept and could prove with experiments or calculations, it's a belief.

So that's why i could gave that answer, just like opposite thoughts couldn't bring any certain prove.

[Shield&Sword]

Well in Holy Quran and Hadeeths of prophet there is science, and Holy Quran can be prooven to be from God by the scientific verses it contain.
I advice you to read the beutifull book of the biggest embryology scientist Keith L.Moore called: "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology with Islamic Additions", its the third edition of his famous book: "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology" here my friend went to buy it but in the medica library they said to him that this book came for short time and then it stopped (who know why?) and in a video he confissed that the verses written in Quran cant be written by man because at that time it was impossible to discover such things, and he said that the Quran must be sent from God. And another big scientists that thier testimony was hidden.
And another big scientists who confissed that Quran is not said by man because of scientific verses.
Perhaps its out of subject, but i think it is relaited to the texts and who created them.

[ennison]

The Idea Of Choosing 'to Believe' Is Interesting. Is That Really What I Believe?? I Respect Turk's Exercise Of Free Will But I Think That Is Opening A Can Of Squirmy Ideas. I'd Like To Hear More Of What He Means.

[Pendragon]

In reading over these posts, a new question pops to mind: If you are convinced that there is no God, doesn't the question of how He came into being become moot?

[ShoutGrace]

In reading over these posts, a new question pops to mind: If you are convinced that there is no God, doesn't the question of how He came into being become moot?

To quote the opening post:

One problem I have with the idea of God is that, as an answer to life, it doesn't solve anything. I mean, if God created us, then what created God?

It would seem from these words that reconciling the apparent difficulty in the concept of God as "eternal" or similarly "uncreated" would obviate one obstruction towards that particular member's belief in God.

Also, if an atheist could show that the idea of God being eternal is ridiculous or absurd, they could perhaps further the cause of atheistic philosophy? Why do any atheists try to make philosophical points at all? Perhaps because they feel an intellectual obligation to? Or a need to promote what they believe to be true, same as anybody? Just for fun (same as anybody )?

[Turk]

The Idea Of Choosing 'to Believe' Is Interesting. Is That Really What I Believe?? I Respect Turk's Exercise Of Free Will But I Think That Is Opening A Can Of Squirmy Ideas. I'd Like To Hear More Of What He Means.

It's faith. Some chooses not to believe, some chooses to believe. If i'd know your certain question i could try to give a certain answer. Because as you said there's many questions could asked about that, so i prefer to hear your question before telling something.

[ennison]

Ok. Here's my question. Is faith an act of choice or is it God-given - in your opinion?

[rufioag]

I believe you can be moved to faith but the final decision is yours.

Just as in Matthew 22: 14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen" is a perfect example of how their is an opportunity for ALL to accept Jesus as Savior, yet in the end, few make the decision to move to faith.