Horatio

[Janine]

Oh my, we seem to have taken a little Thanksgiving Day break from poor "Horatio". Should we revamp, and ask another question on his behalf, or follow the one that Petrarch or Arlene (? can't remember now) has layed out -.....just who is Horatio?..... and if you say a Stoic, Virgil, I will scream!...

[Virgil]

Oh my, we seem to have taken a little Thanksgiving Day break from poor "Horatio". Should we revamp, and ask another question on his behalf, or follow the one that Petrarch or Arlene (? can't remember now) has layed out -.....just who is Horatio?..... and if you say a Stoic, Virgil, I will scream!...

Ok, some seem to think he's not a Dane. That seems nebulous to me. I know he's unsure of the drinking problems of Denmark, but is this enough to say he's not native? He seems to be at home. When Hamlet is sent off to England, doesn't Horatio stay behind? And why do the guards ask for Horatio to see the ghost before Hamlet? If he's not from Denmark, where is he from? What's he doing in Denmark if he's not a native?

[Janine]

I agree with you about Horatio being a Dane. I just don't see the indication that he is not one. He seems to have gone to the same school as Hamlet and that is how they know each other, but he seems perfectly at home in the castle and seems to fit in well and be trusted by everyone. Do you think the royalty would trust him so if he were foreign? I don't - not in the time the play is set. He, also is concerned over the building up of defenses and seems to take that personally. Perhaps he is a guest at the castle, but not a non-native to Denmark. Hamlet seems to have gotten along well with everyone prior to the marriage of his mother and the ghost requesting revenge. He seems to have been well liked and attracted many friends...some apparently at school. It would make sense that he meet up with Horatio there and formed a bond of friendship. He easily could have lived in another part of Denmark prior to meeting Hamlet. Or another theory could be that he was a childhood friend, but if that be true his family might be present also in the play.

[Virgil]

Hey, I'm glad someone agrees with me on something.

[Janine]

I thought you liked to be combatant! Hey, I must have read that in your interview. Can't find it in your profile. Anyway, give it time.....someone is bound to disagree with us...like Arlene or Petrarch. Then the fun will begin! "Calling in the opponents!"

[ShoutGrace]

Why do people care where Horatio is from? The first few times I read the play that question never occurred to me, and I’m kind of unsure how it came into being.

When Hamlet is sent off to England, doesn't Horatio stay behind?

Most likely because Claudius doesn’t see the need to kill or exile Horatio. The less witnesses, the better – the neater the better.

And why do the guards ask for Horatio to see the ghost before Hamlet?

They aren’t friendly enough with Hamlet to approach him directly. Horatio is a similarly educated scholar, and a more common man. He is, for lack of a better term, a “good substitute” for Hamlet to them. Asking Horatio is also a preliminary, almost cautionsary step. They wanted yet another person to observe the strange appearance of the Ghost – perhaps they needed Horatio to talk to Hamlet as well, he wouldn’t have trusted them.


I assumed Horatio was a Dane simply because of the events in Act 1 scene 1 – Marcellus openly asks Barnardo and Horatio who can tell him why they have been having to watch the perimeter every night, why the country has been making weapons and training warriors, making the night “joint labourer” with the day, etc. Horatio responds with the following:

That can I.
At least the whisper goes so: our last king,
whose image even but now appeared to us,

and forward. He proceeds to draw upon his education for a little coloring of his explanation of the “rummage” in the land. However, it is merely the “our” above that leads me to believe he is a native.

[Virgil]

I thought you liked to be combatant! Hey, I must have read that in your interview. Can't find it in your profile. Anyway, give it time.....someone is bound to disagree with us...like Arlene or Petrarch. Then the fun will begin! "Calling in the opponents!"

I'm not sure where I said that either, but I did say it. I don't know if I can wait until someone disagrees with me.

[Virgil]

Most likely because Claudius doesn’t see the need to kill or exile Horatio. The less witnesses, the better – the neater the better.

Yes, I agree. My point was that if he were simply Hamlet's guest, he would have either gone with Hamlet or went home.

They aren’t friendly enough with Hamlet to approach him directly. Horatio is a similarly educated scholar, and a more common man. He is, for lack of a better term, a “good substitute” for Hamlet to them. Asking Horatio is also a preliminary, almost cautionsary step. They wanted yet another person to observe the strange appearance of the Ghost – perhaps they needed Horatio to talk to Hamlet as well, he wouldn’t have trusted them.

Quite right. And so would they have trusted someone who is not Danish? Unlikely.

I assumed Horatio was a Dane simply because of the events in Act 1 scene 1 – Marcellus openly asks Barnardo and Horatio who can tell him why they have been having to watch the perimeter every night, why the country has been making weapons and training warriors, making the night “joint labourer” with the day, etc. Horatio responds with the following:

That can I.
At least the whisper goes so: our last king,
whose image even but now appeared to us,

Excellent!

[Virgil]

You know what I've wanted to start? Just like there is a monthly book forum read, I've thought about a monthly Shakespeare play that we read and comment on act by act. Something like an act per week. Any interest in participating?

[ShoutGrace]

I'd be interested. However, depending on how rigorous a schedule I construct for myself next semester, I may not be available to participate as much as I'd like.

I think that we should mix up comedies, tragedies and histories as much as possible. Or perhaps eliminate the histories entirely - I'd always planned on reading those consecutively.

Let's just wait a few months before arranging to read Hamlet.

[Virgil]

I'd be interested. However, depending on how rigorous a schedule I construct for myself next semester, I may not be available to participate as much as I'd like.

I think that we should mix up comedies, tragedies and histories as much as possible. Or perhaps eliminate the histories entirely - I'd always planned on reading those consecutively.

Let's just wait a few months before arranging to read Hamlet.

I think one act per week isn't too rigorous. In five weeks we will have completed a play and we could spend another week for further discussion. That's six weeks per play, or if that is still too tough we could go one play every two months. I'm not sure how we would select the play. Any suggestions?

[Petrarch's Love]

As far as the debate as to Horatio's origins, I think the main cause for doubting he's a Dane are the lines from Act I, scene iv. The lines come just after Hamlet has described drinking customs at the Danish court:

Hor. Is it a custom?

Ham. Ay marry is't,
But to my mind, though I am native here
And to the manner born...

These lines seem to suggest that Horatio is not native, as Hamlet is, nor to the manner born, and some readers, comparing these lines with the reference to "our king" that Shoutgrace brought up, have found this a problematic contradiction in the characterization of Horatio. I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king." I have to say though, that it's not a problem that I've thought through much. Like others here, I doubt I even noticed this issue when first reading the play, though I have to admit that I always feel as though there's something of the outsider about Horatio. Perhaps this is the effect of his being so much more rational and less passionately involved than most of the other characters, which makes him seem less a part of the Denmark where something's gone rotten. He's also Hamlet's university friend--like the chum he's brought back to his highly disfunctional home for the holidays--which gives him the air of being an outsider. These are really ways he's seperate from the others in terms of character though, more than it proves anything one way or the other about him being or not being Danish, and of course it's entirely possible he's a Dane, but just new to the Danish court (perhaps a scholar moving up in the world through his friendship with the prince). There's so little textual evidence about Horatio that it's hard to say with any certainty what his backstory is.

[Petrarch's Love]

You know what I've wanted to start? Just like there is a monthly book forum read, I've thought about a monthly Shakespeare play that we read and comment on act by act. Something like an act per week. Any interest in participating?

That sounds like a great idea, Virg. If we did this, could I be hideously selfish and request one of the earlier histories or comedies early in the new year? That's what I'll be teaching and it would be super to have a place to discuss one of the plays my students will be reading. If people here have strong feelings about reading a particular play though, I'll be glad to discuss any of the plays.

[ShoutGrace]

As far as the debate as to Horatio's origins, I think the main cause for doubting he's a Dane are the lines from Act I, scene iv. The lines come just after Hamlet has described drinking customs at the Danish court:

To me, the key words there are "the Danish Court" - a relatively restricted area/group that Horatio may not have had access to - though, come to think of it, where are they viewing this carousing from? The battlements? If it's any place like that, then anybody, down to the guards, could see this behaviour taking place (indeed making it evident that Horatio isn't a Dane).

Slightly off topic observation - I think this speech again evidences Hamlet's jumping to generalities. If Horatio is indeed a foreigner, then perhaps it isn't so clear that all foreigners think less of the Danish for being such "drunkards." Not everybody "cleps" the Danish so for this propensity to 'enjoy' alcohol - perhaps it is just another area of Claudius' character that Hamlet is finding fault in, and subsequently magnifying.

I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king."

Well, that fits.

Perhaps this is the effect of his being so much more rational and less passionately involved than most of the other characters, which makes him seem less a part of the Denmark where something's gone rotten.

This is interesting too - it seems as if every character is effected by the "foul contagion" that is making Denmark such a weedy garden - though Horatio isn't? I do seem to remember getting the sense that he was almost "tolerating" Hamlet's mousetrap antics, especially around the time when Hamlet asked him (paraphrased) "Then saw you not his face?"

He's also Hamlet's university friend--like the chum he's brought back to his highly disfunctional home for the holidays--which gives him the air of being an outsider.

Do you remember that business when Hamlet first greets Horatio, and he asks him (again, paraphrased) "What makes you from Wittenberg?" Horatio replies that he came to see the funeral, and of course Hamlet says "Prithee do not mock me, fellow, it was to see my mother's wedding." (and the bit about the cold baked meats, one of my favourites .) Anyhow, why did Horatio come from Wittenberg? To be with his friend through such harsh times?

[Virgil]

These lines seem to suggest that Horatio is not native, as Hamlet is, nor to the manner born, and some readers, comparing these lines with the reference to "our king" that Shoutgrace brought up, have found this a problematic contradiction in the characterization of Horatio. I suppose it's possible that Horatio was not born in Denmark but has moved there later in his life and made it his adopted country, thus explaining why he might not quite be regarded as "native" but might still refer to "our king."

You mean it's possible that Shakespeare made another mistake.

And in a "perfect" play such as Hamlet. Such sacrilidge.

Actually if this is a mistake on Shakespeare's part, I would only label this as a slip rather than a flaw, like I did with the ghost. A slip is an error in keeping the facts straight rather than a flaw which is critical to the story.