Horatio

[msdirector]

Not faded out, Janine. I just have other things to do. Thanksgiving approaches... I'm still here...

[ShoutGrace]

Sometimes it takes days, weeks, or months for a reply, Janine . I'm still too busy to sit down and compose a reply in the Ghost thread, and I'm about a month late already.

[msdirector]

Perhaps everyone is now convinced that Horatio is a stoic.

Sorry, Virgil, wishful thinking I'm afraid.

I do want to thank you for posting those definitions of Stoicism. They were indeed interesting, but I'm afraid that for me they simply confused the issue more.

In the first (Wikipedia) definition, it said:

It teaches that self-control, fortitude and detachment from distracting emotions, sometimes interpreted as an indifference to pleasure or pain, allows one to become a clear thinker, level-headed and unbiased. A primary goal of Stoicism was to improve the individual’s spiritual well-being. Virtue, reason, and natural law are prime directives. By mastering passions and emotions, Stoics believe it is possible to overcome the discord of the outside world and find peace within oneself. Stoicism holds that passion distorts truth, and that the pursuit of truth is virtuous.

That makes sense to me as a definition of Stoicism as I've heard it refered to. But to apply it to as a label to Horatio, presupposes not only that Horatio is, in fact "self-controlled", "detached", or "indifferent to pain and pleasure", which I believe is absolutely untrue, but also that Horatio has made a DELIBERATE CHOICE to follow that philosophy, and isn't simply just naturally a clear thinking, level headed, unbiased person. Being a Stoic is not just about how you are. It is a deliberate choice to follow a particular philosophy. And there is nothing in Hamlet that indicates in any way that Horatio has made such a choice. One can be rational, intelligent, scientific and not wildly passionate, and even "stoic" (lower case and used as an adjective to describe a certain state of mind) without being A STOIC (capitalized, meaning a deliberate follower of the Stoic philosophy). One can even believe in reason as opposed to religion or as opposed to giving in to emotions, without ascribing to a Stoicism as a Philosophy (in fact, I know several people who do).

The second definition indicates:

It means, in the first place, that men should conform themselves to nature in the wider sense, that is, to the laws of the universe, and secondly, that they should conform their actions to nature in the narrower sense, to their own essential nature, reason.

This does sound something like what Horatio appears to believe at the start of the play. But it really seems to have little relation (other than reason) to the other definitions of Stoicism that indicate detachment, dispassion or indifference to pain or pleasure. In fact it doesn't include those things at all, and I question its veracity as an actual definition of Stoicism. It may address some of a Stoic's beliefs, but, again, you don't have to be a Stoic to believe that reason is the essence of human nature.

In the third definition it says:

The Stoics did, in fact, hold that emotions like fear or envy (or impassioned sexual attachments, or passionate love of anything whatsoever) either were, or arose from, false judgements and that the sage--a person who had attained moral and intellectual perfection--would not undergo them.

I don't see that in Horatio at all. I don't believe or see any evidence in the text that he believed that emotions or passions came from false judgements. I just see someone who is naturally of cooler temper and more rational temperament than someone like Hamlet or Claudius.

Then you say:

The objectives are clear thinking, control of emotions, immune to misfortunes but not that a person is no longer human.

True. But, as I said, it also takes a choice to follow the Stoic philosophy in order to be called a Stoic. I don't see anything like that in anything that Horatio says. You can be all those thing and not follow Stoicism at all. And, while he is certainly rational, I don't see Horatio as deliberately trying to control his emotions, nor do I see him as immune to misfortunes, no matter what Hamlet thinks of him. We see the man. Hamlet sees Horatio through his own eyes and what he sees is not accurate. It is a colored by his own disgust with his own passionate nature and his admiration of Horatio's balance.

Even Brutus feels the pain of the death of his wife in Julius Ceasar.

But Brutus chooses Stoicism. It is his choice to work deliberately at controlling those emotions, just as Mr. Spock does. Vulcans, by the way are NOT without emotions. But their philosophy (very much a more elaborate version of Stoicism) dictates that they make a conscious decision to control them. That is where I see the difference in Horatio.

Notice how many of the themes of the Hamlet play are mentioned in these definitions of stoicism: false judgements (killing of Polonius), misfortune (outrageous fortune), virtue (revenge for the death of one's father), universe govened by law, discord of the outside world, spiritual well being (as opposed to madness), live according to nature. These all interweave within the play in some fashion.

Here you are going somewhere else entirely. These examples you give have nothing to do with Horatio at all. Are you trying to say that the whole play is some sort of riff on Stoicism???? That makes no sense to me at all. You are taking individual words, phrases or ideas scattered throughout the play totally out of context and trying to connect them all to the supposed philosophy of one relatively minor, certainly supporting, character in the play, and then saying that the entire play seems to be about that philosophy. That simply doesn't play.

The point you are making about Horatio succumbing to emotion is the failure of stoicism.

I never said that Horatio "succumbs" to emotion or that it is any kind of a failure! I simply don't see it that way. Nor do I see any textual evidence that Horatio believes that his showing his normal emotions in those various situations is an evidence of a failure or weakness of any kind. He says nothing of the kind (which he surely would had Shakespeare wanted to emphasize Horatio's belief in Stoicism).

I think that is Shakespeare's point, that stocism fails to be a viable system of understanding and coping with the world.

On the contrary, IF Shakespeare did create Horatio as an example of Stoic philosophy, his point would have been that Stoicism succeeds where over emotion fails, since it is Horatio alone who survives the play and all those overly passionate characters who obviously do not subscribe to that philosophy, are all dead through their own passions.

Yet, if you consider Horatio's expression of normal emotions, which are clearly in the play, a failure of Stoicism, then he should have died too.

Or, if the point was that Stoicism fails as a viable system of coping with the world, then Horatio should have been the protagonist, and HE should have died.

Your arguments simply don't hold up, Virgil. This play is about Hamlet, not Horatio. And Stoicisim, if it is there (and I don't see it) would be merely a minor character trait in a supporting character, hardly a whole issue throughout the play. Horatio may be considered by some to be stoic, but I don't see any evidence that he considers himself A Stoic. And that a few words or ideas scattered through the play also happen to be part of some definitions of Stoicism is simply not anywhere near conclusive evidence that Shakespeare was trying to make some significant point about the viablility of Stoicism. Those same words and ideas can be found in any number of plays, and I'll bet I can find words and ideas included in Hamlet in the definition of almost any philosophy. There are alot of words and ideas in there!

However, I have no particular desire to try to get you to interpret Hamlet the way I do, Virgil. The fun of Shakespeare is that, through the ambiguities he has left us, many different interpretations are possible. I think, this time around, that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. Maybe some day you'll do a production of Hamlet that focuses on Stoism vs. Passion. That might be an interesting interpretation.

For the moment, I'll go back to my original question....

Who (not what kind of a person) do you thing Horatio is? Is he a Dane? If so, why is he unfamiliar with Danish customs and why does Hamlet refer to him as a stranger? And if not, then where is he from, and why is he so familiar with the Danish Court, where does he know the old King from, and why do Gertrude and Claudius treat him as almost a member of the family?

[Janine]

Sometimes it takes days, weeks, or months for a reply, Janine . I'm still too busy to sit down and compose a reply in the Ghost thread, and I'm about a month late already.

Hi ShoutGrace, You make a good point. I am new here and a little obsessed. I think I need a life!

[Janine]

Arlene, are you stuffing the turkey as you are writing? I think by now poor Virgil wishes he never heard the word - stoic. You did a good, concise job defending our position. Thanks!
On to your new question......tomorrow....perhaps....

[msdirector]

Arlene, are you stuffing the turkey as you are writing?

Not quite yet! But I did do most of my Thanksgiving food shopping today as well as trying to clean up my dining room so that everyone is actually able to find my dining room table to eat on! I'm doing Thanksgiving on Friday for myself, my husband, my daughter, her husband and adorable one year old son, and my son and his girlfriend. It will be the first time in several years. They go to their father's on Thursday... I get them on Friday (and my poor son gets to eat turkey three days in a row since he's having Thanksgiving at his girlfriend's on Wednesday!). Making Thanksgiving dinner starts at least 3-4 days in advance, but stuffing the turkey is done at the last minute.

As you say... more tomorrow!

[Virgil]

Arlene, are you stuffing the turkey as you are writing? I think by now poor Virgil wishes he never heard the word - stoic. You did a good, concise job defending our position. Thanks!
On to your new question......tomorrow....perhaps....

She did a great job. I feel like I'm the turkey being stuffed. I don't have time right now to reply to Arlene fully, so we'll have to wait.

But quick question then if you don't think Horatio is a follower of stoicism. When Hamlet tells him, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamt of," what is the philosophy he is referring to?

[msdirector]

She did a great job. I feel like I'm the turkey being stuffed.

Thanks, Virgil! But be assured... no such "stuffing" was intended! :-)

Discussing Hamlet and its possible interpretations is a joy for me and every time I get the chance to explore the text in more depth to investigate an interpretation different from mine or that I hadn't heard before is an opportunity for me to learn more about the play and what it contains. It really doesn't matter if I agree with it, or even if I can find textual justification for it. It's the fun of exploring the text and finding new ideas or explanations or discoveries each time that makes these discussions so great for me.

Each person sees the play differently and that's one of the things that makes Shakespeare's writing so great. The ambiguity that he builds into his plays is part of what has allowed it to survive and be continuously enjoyed, both on the page and on the stage, for over 400 years. His plays are different for every reader and for every audience member because every production is different and each person sees his own experiences, knowledge, attitudes, relationships and attitudes reflected in the plays.

But quick question then if you don't think Horatio is a follower of stoicism. When Hamlet tells him, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamt of," what is the philosophy he is referring to?

Actually, I already addressed this several posts back, Virgil. Wait, I'll quote myself...

As for Horatio's "philosophy" - Hamlet speaks to Horatio in Act I, scene 5 in answer to Horatio's:
"O day and night, but this is wondrous strange."
(in itself hardly a dispassionate response to the Ghost's voice telling them to "Swear by his sword.")
To Horatio's exclamation, Hamlet replies:
"And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

The reference is NOT to any one particular philosophy such as Stoicism. It is to a reference to Horatio's belief in learning and science as the guiding force in the Universe. Horatio entered the play as a disbeliever in the supernatural. When asked to come to witness the Ghost, he never believes it is real. In fact, Marcellus says:

"Horatio says 'tis but our fantasy,
And will not let belief take hold of him,
Touching this dread sight twice seen of us.
Therefore I have entreated him along
With us to watch the minutes of this night,
That if again this apparition come
He may approve our eyes and speak to it."

To which Horatio replies:
"Tush, tush, 'twill not appear."

This has nothing to do with Stoicism or any other philosophy of behavior or emotional control. It is about Horatio's belief in science and disbelief in religion and the supernatural. And that belief is totally shaken when Horatio actually does see the Ghost. THAT'S the "philosophy" that Hamlet is referring to.

Horatio's philosophy, as I indicated, is his belief in science and rationality as an explanation for everything (one that is an aspect of Stoic philosophy, I'll agree, but not in and of itself evidence of his own belief in "Stoicism" as a philosophy). Before the play began, and at his entrance, he indicates that he believes, as many do today, that there is nothing that can not be explained by science or other form of learning, that the supernatural doesn't exist, that it is a figment of the imagination. However, he contradicts himself to some degree in his discussions of the supernatural events that happened the night before Caesar's assassignation, so it makes me wonder if he, like many college students, advocates a philosophy that he is still trying to convince himself of. Then, once he sees the Ghost, the foundation of this philosophy is shot out from under him, and that is what Hamlet is referring to. That doesn't change the fact that Horatio is, at heart, a scholarly minded person and will always approach the world from an intellectual rather than emotional point of view, but it has opened him to the possibilities that there ARE more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in [his] philosophy.

[Janine]

Virgil, do you ever sleep? You posted at 07:36 AM, wow!

I feel like I'm the turkey being stuffed.

Great quote and at such an early hour

I am jealous of you, Arlene, but not all the cooking you have to do this coming week....Holidays are fun, yeah for the guys! (sorry, Virgil). I am jealous of you, Arlene, for having a grand-baby. I want one badly and may be getting one next year. There has to be some compensation for being this age!

Well, the debate rages on.... OR are we going to change gears and try to figure out what kind of a person Horatio really is....origins, personality, etc? Will be interesting to see where this goes from this point on. Arlene should you start a new thread on that topic?

We might all need to turn off our computers this holiday week So much to do, so little time!

[Virgil]

Virgil, do you ever sleep? You posted at 07:36 AM, wow!

I'm up out of bed at 4:45 on work days and get into work by 6:45.

Well, the debate rages on.... OR are we going to change gears and try to figure out what kind of a person Horatio really is....origins, personality, etc? Will be interesting to see where this goes from this point on. Arlene should you start a new thread on that topic?

Wait, I haven't given up yet.

[msdirector]

I am jealous of you, Arlene, but not all the cooking you have to do this coming week....Holidays are fun, yeah for the guys!

Actually, I love the cooking, Janine. I'm not a great cook but I find it fun when I have the chance to play with it. I get too little chance to do it and I've always had fun cooking holiday dinners. Sure, it takes preparation time and work, but it's also endlessly creative. And this year, since my new grandson is allergic to both eggs and milk, and my daughter is breast-feeding so has to be careful of both in her diet as well, I'm faced with the challenge of re-creating some of my favorite dishes to conform to their needs. So I'm changing my "usual" recipes and approaching my turkey from a totally different direction as well as making a totally different "stuffing" that won't be stuffed in the turkey but cooked separately - the Food Channel gives great ideas! I love Rachel Rae and Emeril for all the inspiration they give.

(sorry, Virgil). I am jealous of you, Arlene, for having a grand-baby. I want one badly and may be getting one next year. There has to be some compensation for being this age!

Grandchildren are wonderful! Actually, I have four others, but they are not biologically mine. Mine is a second marriage for both myself and my husband. His three children have given us four wonderful grandchildren - two boys and two girls - who live, unfortunately, in Florida, far from our NJ home, so we don't get to see them very often. I love them dearly, but somehow there is a difference when you actually see the child of your own child. My newest grandchild is my "baby" daughter's son and he has bewitched me since the day he was born. A bit closer (in MA) than our other grandchildren, we get to see him more often - between us going up there and them coming here it's usually at least every couple of months or so - so I have had the chance to watch him grow in a way we didn't have with our other grandchildren, and it has been a joy. I hope you do get the chance to experience it soon!

By the way, I don't need any "compensations" for my age. I just turned 59 and I am enjoying every minute of it. I wouldn't want to be 20 again for a million dollars! I like myself soooooo much better now than I did when I was younger. Every day I learn more, about myself and the world I live in, and I have the experience and the knowledge now to really appreciate it and enjoy it, which I certainly didn't when I was younger. Sure there are challenges to getting older, but there are with any age. And I find that the rewards far outweigh the difficulties. And grandchildren are just one of the many "compensations" that I find. The most exciting thing is my increasing ability to explore my own interests and not have to put everyone else's welfare ahead of my own. For years, as a daughter, wife and mother, I have lived for other people. Now I get to live for myself and pursue my own passions like theatre and Shakespeare. And thankfully I have a husband who totally supports me in that.

Well, the debate rages on.... OR are we going to change gears and try to figure out what kind of a person Horatio really is....origins, personality, etc? Will be interesting to see where this goes from this point on. Arlene should you start a new thread on that topic?

I don't think it necessarily comes under a different thread, Janine. The original thread name was just Horatio and I thought it was to explore his character. It was Virgil who asked the question about Stoicism and that is just one aspect of his character. I've asked my question several times in the thread. It's just that we have yet to explore it because we got caught up in the Stoicism discussion. I can start a new thread if you think it would be better, but the question is already here... it just needs to be addressed.

We might all need to turn off our computers this holiday week So much to do, so little time!

Nonsense! My computer is always on. When I'm doing something else it waits patiently for me. But no matter how much there is to do, I can't and don't work at it constantly. My computer and discussions like this is my downtime. I may not answer ever question immediately, but I do get to them. No need to stop talking, just be patient in waiting for replies until we get to them.

[Petrarch's Love]

Virgil's done a good job of bringing out some definitions of stoicism for us to work with, but I also think that MsD's and Janine's objections are valid in that not all antique Roman's are necessarily stoics (nor, of course, are all stoics necessarily antique Romans--does anyone else feel like they're back in geometry doing logic proofs? ). I think I'll stick with the middle ground, which is that I don't think therere's the textual evidence to say with certaintly that Horatio is a Stoic or is meant to embody Stoic philosophy, but I do think that his character definately has stoical aspects.

But quick question then if you don't think Horatio is a follower of stoicism. When Hamlet tells him, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamt of," what is the philosophy he is referring to?

As for Horatio's "philosophy" - Hamlet speaks to Horatio in Act I, scene 5 in answer to Horatio's:
"O day and night, but this is wondrous strange."
(in itself hardly a dispassionate response to the Ghost's voice telling them to "Swear by his sword.")
To Horatio's exclamation, Hamlet replies:
"And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

The reference is NOT to any one particular philosophy such as Stoicism. It is to a reference to Horatio's belief in learning and science as the guiding force in the Universe. Horatio entered the play as a disbeliever in the supernatural. When asked to come to witness the Ghost, he never believes it is real. In fact, Marcellus says:

"Horatio says 'tis but our fantasy,
And will not let belief take hold of him,
Touching this dread sight twice seen of us.
Therefore I have entreated him along
With us to watch the minutes of this night,
That if again this apparition come
He may approve our eyes and speak to it."

To which Horatio replies:
"Tush, tush, 'twill not appear."

This has nothing to do with Stoicism or any other philosophy of behavior or emotional control. It is about Horatio's belief in science and disbelief in religion and the supernatural. And that belief is totally shaken when Horatio actually does see the Ghost. THAT'S the "philosophy" that Hamlet is referring to.

I would like to add to the above exchange on this famous line, that, though it is possible that a specific philosophy is referred to, it is more likely that this is a common misinterpretation among modern readers because of changes in our perception of the language. The most generally accepted reading of the line is that the "your" is being used in an indefinate form (which was common for Shakespeare's period but not too common now) rather than to indicate Horatio in particular. Since I can't think of a great modern example for the indefinate usage of "your" I've made up the following one:

"You have your stuffed turkeys and your unstuffed turkeys, and they're all fine birds, but your stuffed turkeys are the tastiest."

In my (very silly) example "your turkeys" is not meant to refer to Virgil's turkeys or MsDirector's turkeys in particular (even if I am addressing Virgil or MsDirector), but to the turkeys of the population in general. This was a fairly common construction in the Elizabethan/Jacobean period (I'm assuming it's some kind of an overlap from when English had more formally defined singular and plural second person pronouns, but I don't know), so the likely usage of the "your" in the lines "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/ Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" is probably a reference to philosophy in general rather than a philosophy Horatio in particular posesses.

The word "philosophy" also commonly had a much more general definition in this period than we usually think of it having today, and so philosophy could be used to broadly mean "learning," "knowledge," or "education." We still see this broader use of the term in the title of the PhD degree, which means, of course, "Doctor of Philosophy" and can apply to those with knowledge and education in a wide range of fields, not only the philosophy department.

[Janine]

I'm back finally - the site must have been down all night(?)
Arlene, I know all about "downtime". First time I was trying to post it would not go through - that was in the midst of making my dinner - very frustrating. No way will I turn my computer off really, even on Thanksgiving day! I was just joking about abandoning our computers this week. Mine is on all day long, since I got broadband. I am a super multi-tasker these days, isn't everyone? I am quite addicted to the internet and computer, but I love it!!! Yes, I like my age, too, and I keep finding more and more to pursue. It is wonderful!...Like Lit Net.
I know it must be great to have a grandchild. My son always said he wouldn't have children, but now he is over 30 and he and his wife, of a year, are changing their tune. I am thrilled.

For now I read Petrarch's comments - I forgot that the thread was just called "Horatio", therefore we can definitely stick to this thread and see what happens....but Virgil says he is still not done with the word "stoic"....sigh, sigh....

Well, I agree with P and quote here here:

The most generally accepted reading of the line is that the "your" is being used in an indefinate form (which was common for Shakespeare's period but not too common now) rather than to indicate Horatio in particular. Since I can't think of a great modern example for the indefinate usage of "your" I've made up the following one:

"You have your stuffed turkeys and your unstuffed turkeys, and they're all fine birds, but your stuffed turkeys are the tastiest."

In my (very silly) example "your turkeys" is not meant to refer to Virgil's turkeys or MsDirector's turkeys in particular (even if I am addressing Virgil or MsDirector), but to the turkeys of the population in general. This was a fairly common construction in the Elizabethan/Jacobean period (I'm assuming it's some kind of an overlap from when English had more formally defined singular and plural second person pronouns, but I don't know), so the likely usage of the "your" in the lines "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/ Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" is probably a reference to philosophy in general rather than a philosophy Horatio in particular posesses.

The word "philosophy" also commonly had a much more general definition in this period than we usually think of it having today, and so philosophy could be used to broadly mean "learning," "knowledge," or "education." We still see this broader use of the term in the title of the PhD degree, which means, of course, "Doctor of Philosophy" and can apply to those with knowledge and education in a wide range of fields, not only the philosophy department.
When I read the line or heard it spoken - "your philosophy", my first inclination was to think of it in prescisely this way - not personal to Horatio, but rather as a more general figure of speach that included anyone.

Love your turkey analogy....very fitting, indeed! and .....Virgil, you are no turkey!

[penelopea]

He did a damn good job on that bridge.

[Janine]

He did a damn good job on that bridge.

Afraid I don't quite get your drift?