Horatio

[Virgil]

Here's a thread to discuss the significance of Horatio as a character in Hamlet. Let me start with this question. Why does Shakespeeare make Horatio a stoic?

[Janine]

Glad you started this new thread. Interesting question, Virgil. In what sense do you mean stoic?
In my dictionary they capitalize "Stoic": the word pertains to the school of philosophy founded by Zeno, who taught that men should be free of passion, unmoved by joy or grief, and submit without complaint to unavoidable necessity.
stoical means: 1. impassive; characterized by a calm, austere fortitude befitting the Stoics. 2. of or pertaining to the Stoics.

Do you believe this fits Horatio? I do not. It seems that Horatio does "feel" along with Hamlet and he does sympathize with Hamlet's dilema throughout, even though he stays calm and steady. His loyalty is unwavering, but I don't think it is "stoic". That would make him cold and unfeeling. Especially in the final scene, he does not seem stoic at all, when he wishes to drink the remainder of the poison, so he can follow Hamlet to his death. He seems to me to be quite emotional and passionate at that point; then Hamlet appeals to him to refrain from taking his life, so that Horatio can tell the story of what has transpired and why.
I think Shakespeare did use Horatio's calmness in contrast to Hamlet's energetic, sometimes erratic, behavior for many reasons. Here are some: 1. to show that Hamlet was really not crazy in reality; he could relate sensibly to a fellow student, even under dire circumstances 2. to show that Hamlet could have a fine and loyal friend and live peacably, if under different circumstances 3. that Hamlet had someone in the play he could confide in and share his ideas or sympathise with; maybe just listen to Hamlet 4. to present Horatio as someone who could advise Hamlet, if the need be. 5. to present Hamlet to the audience, as someone who was a good person, innately, and had had a normal life up until this point; to make Hamlet more credible as a human being and a noble youth
6. .....etc, etc, etc....many more ideas...I will think on it further.

[Virgil]

Glad you started this new thread. Interesting question, Virgil. In what sense do you mean stoic?
In my dictionary they capitalize "Stoic": the word pertains to the school of philosophy founded by Zeno, who taught that men should be free of passion, unmoved by joy or grief, and submit without complaint to unavoidable necessity.
stoical means: 1. impassive; characterized by a calm, austere fortitude befitting the Stoics. 2. of or pertaining to the Stoics.

Well, I'm pretty sure it's actually mentioned in the text that Horatio is a Stoic. Yes, as you've defined it. I did a cursory check and couldn't locate where it's mentioned. I'll do a better search. If I find it I'll quote it.

Do you believe this fits Horatio? I do not.

I thought it did, but you've got me thinking. We'll have to check the play.

I think Shakespeare did use Horatio's calmness in contrast to Hamlet's energetic, sometimes erratic, behavior for many reasons. Here are some: 1. to show that Hamlet was really not crazy in reality; he could relate sensibly to a fellow student, even under dire circumstances 2. to show that Hamlet could have a fine and loyal friend and live peacably, if under different circumstances 3. that Hamlet had someone in the play he could confide in and share his ideas or sympathise with; maybe just listen to Hamlet 4. to present Horatio as someone who could advise Hamlet, if the need be. 5. to present Hamlet to the audience, as someone who was a good person, innately, and had had a normal life up until this point; to make Hamlet more credible as a human being and a noble youth

I agree with everything you say here, but doesn't that make him a stoic?

[Janine]

No Virgil, I think stoic is too strong a term for him. I think of monks or people who deny themselves entirely of emotion, passion. It will be interesting, however, if you find it in the text and Shakespeare refers to him in this way.

I thought of this awhile ago. Another reason Horatio is so vital to the play is the fact that he made the initial decision to tell Hamlet about the ghost's appearance, he actually and unassumingly, started Hamlet on his course towards his own fate. Now granted the ghost could have appeared directly to Hamlet in a different location, or when Hamlet might be alone in the courtyard. But Shakespeare did not intend it that way. I think by Horatio, in seeing the ghost before Hamlet did, he lends more credibility that the ghost actually does exist. He is a credible and honest witness.

I would probably call Horatio calm or level-headed, but never stoic. Stoic seems so cold and so distant, and indifferent to all emotion. Horatio is really quietly passionate and caring, evidenced by his final words to Hamlet. His personality is undisputably quite different than Hamlet's, maybe even opposite in temperment. Shakespeare used contrast constantly in his plays. In a way Horatio is acting almost like the chorus or narrator, present in other plays. He helps to lend an air of perspective and reality to the play. If you think about it, no one else in the play stays loyal or acts fairly towards Hamlet. Rosencrantz and Gildenstern act as spies, and therefore forfeit their loyalty to Hamlet, or so Hamlet views it in that way. But Horatio really stays firm in his belief in his friend.

I beleive that as a device for the play Shakespeare very cleverly wrote the character, so that Hamlet would not be entirely alone and would have someone speak to...afterall, some of the best and most profound lines are spoken to Horatio - example: in the graveyard about the mortality of man, and the scene preceeding the duel, when Hamlet expresses a forbodding feeling and uses the "fall of a sparrow" as an example of his destiny -- all to Horatio's intend ears and patient listening.

I think there are many more reasons Horatio is important - vitally so - to the plot.

[Virgil]

No Virgil, I think stoic is too strong a term for him. I think of monks or people who deny themselves entirely of emotion, passion. It will be interesting, however, if you find it in the text and Shakespeare refers to him in this way.

I think you're definition might be a little too strong. It tends to mean those who try to control their emotion because they believe it is beneficial or proper. Brutis from Julius Ceasar was a stoic. But I can almost swear Horatio is too. I'll have to look.

I thought of this awhile ago. Another reason Horatio is so vital to the play is the fact that he made the initial decision to tell Hamlet about the ghost's appearance, he actually and unassumingly, started Hamlet on his course towards his own fate. Now granted the ghost could have appeared directly to Hamlet in a different location, or when Hamlet might be alone in the courtyard. But Shakespeare did not intend it that way. I think by Horatio, in seeing the ghost before Hamlet did, he lends more credibility that the ghost actually does exist. He is a credible and honest witness.

I would probably call Horatio calm or level-headed, but never stoic. Stoic seems so cold and so distant, and indifferent to all emotion. Horatio is really quietly passionate and caring, evidenced by his final words to Hamlet. His personality is undisputably quite different than Hamlet's, maybe even opposite in temperment. Shakespeare used contrast constantly in his plays. In a way Horatio is acting almost like the chorus or narrator, present in other plays. He helps to lend an air of perspective and reality to the play. If you think about it, no one else in the play stays loyal or acts fairly towards Hamlet. Rosencrantz and Gildenstern act as spies, and therefore forfeit their loyalty to Hamlet, or so Hamlet views it in that way. But Horatio really stays firm in his belief in his friend.

I beleive that as a device for the play Shakespeare very cleverly wrote the character, so that Hamlet would not be entirely alone and would have someone speak to...afterall, some of the best and most profound lines are spoken to Horatio - example: in the graveyard about the mortality of man, and the scene preceeding the duel, when Hamlet expresses a forbodding feeling and uses the "fall of a sparrow" as an example of his destiny -- all to Horatio's intend ears and patient listening.

I think there are many more reasons Horatio is important - vitally so - to the plot.

This all seems very sound analysis to me. You seemed to have thought it through well.

[Janine]

Well, you might be right and the term stoic was used differently here. But I have seen Hamlet (full-length version of the film) so many times now I feel I can recall almost all the lines. I don't recall stoic being used. Hope you come up with the text to show me when he was referred to as such. Who would have referred to him in that term?

Anyway, thanks for reading all that I wrote and thanks for acknowledging that I did think it out well. I have more thoughts on Horatio, since I really liked his character, but I am too tired now to post anymore tonight.
Thanks for starting the thread....good idea
Hopefully Petrarch or msdirector, or someone new will enter the discussion. I would like to hear what they would have to say on the subject. That would be fun! I hope they notice your link in "Ghost" soon....probably tomorrow.


PS:You should start another thread in Lawrence on "Transfiguration" - do you think you would get any responses or anyone knowledgable enough about the subject? What happened, also, in Poetry Contest? - it seems to have come to a halt last time I checked. I think someone has to pick a winner. Can't wait to see the next photo posted.

[Janine]

Where's Petrarch??? She said she loved Horatio. I hope this thread has not gone dead yet. Hey, Virgil, do I kill threads or something? Starting to get a complex.

[msdirector]

Where's Petrarch??? She said she loved Horatio. I hope this thread has not gone dead yet. Hey, Virgil, do I kill threads or something? Starting to get a complex.

Hi Janine....

You certainly don't kill threads!!!

I don't know about Petrarch, but I also said that Horatio was a favorite of mine. I just haven't had a chance to get back to the board - it's been a busy day what with Thanksgiving coming up. It's only been one day - give us a chance!

I'll reply to some of the Horatio posts specifically coming up....

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi all--You're not thread killers. Petrarch has been distracted all day and is blurrily finishing reading over student papers and completing pressing research at 1:45 a.m. She will post some Horatian commentary to add to what looks like a promising discussion tomorrow after she's had some sleep.

[msdirector]

Beware... this is a ridiculously long post!

Do you believe this fits Horatio? I do not. It seems that Horatio does "feel" along with Hamlet and he does sympathize with Hamlet's dilema throughout, even though he stays calm and steady. His loyalty is unwavering, but I don't think it is "stoic".

I agree with you here, Janine. In fact, I was going to write to Virgil with exactly the same reaction.

I've been studying Hamlet very closely for years and have even created two separate cuttings for performance as well as a shorter workshop version of one of those cuttings. I have never seen any specific reference to Stoicism in the play (which doesn't mean it isn't there!) or any reference to Horatio in the play as a Stoic.

However, I have heard other critics refer to him that way. But I don't agree.

Brutus is a Stoic. He acknowledges it. Stoicism doesn't imply that he is cold or has no emotions (Brutus certainly has plenty of emotions), but it is a philosophy that requires its followers to consciously work to maintain a calm, unemotional nature, to avoid and control emotions, to try to actively eliminate them from their lives. Think of Mr. Spock. It's not lack of emotion - its a conscious attempt to control those emotions.

And it is here that I believe that Horatio does not fall into that catagory.

Horatio is an educated man, a man of science, a man of reason. It is for that very reason that he was asked to come and see the Ghost and attest to his presence, since the soldiers of the guard knew (I'm not sure how - and that's my question coming later) that while they might be fooled or victims of their imagination, Horatio would not be.

It is Horatio's rational self that makes him seem unemotional. But it is not something that he tries to do - it is the essence of who he is. Just because a person is calm and rational by nature doesn't make him a Stoic.

There is plenty of evidence in the play for Horatio's emotions, for his attachment to Hamlet, for his love and concern for him. I can't see any evidence that he deliberately holds his emotions in check, tries to avoid or deny them. He is simply a calm, rational man of reason. And that is one of the reasons that Hamlet loves him. For Hamlet himself says to Horatio:

"Since my dear soul was mistress of her choice
And could of men distinguish, her election
Hath sealed thee for herself. For thou has been
As one, in suff'ring all, that suffers nothing,
A man that Fortune's buffets and rewards
Hath ta'en with equal thanks; and blest are those
Whose blood and judgement are so well commingled
That they are not a pipe for Fortune's finger
To sound what stop she please. Give me that man
Who is not passions slave, and I will wear him
In my heart's core, ay, in my heart of heart,
As I do thee."

This is one of my favorite speeches in Hamlet. It is such a beautiful expression of love between two friends. And it seems at first as if Hamlet is saying that Horatio is a Stoic. But then he says that Horatio is blessed by having a nature whose blood and judgement are so well commingled that they do not react wildly to every emotion. This doesn't imply Stoicism. Hamlet sees his own nature as being too passionate and easily moved by emotion, and he expresses an admiration for the balance of emotion and rationality in Horatio's nature. And that is a far cry from coldness, freedom from passion or being unmoved by joy or grief.

Janine wrote:

Shakespeare used contrast constantly in his plays. In a way Horatio is acting almost like the chorus or narrator, present in other plays.

I've heard this before. Some say that Horatio acts as Shakespeare's voice in the play. Others say that Horatio stands in for the audience in the play. I'm not sure that I see that. He does not have the commentary that would fit any of those four positions - chorus, narrator, Shakespeare's voice or the audience's eye.

Janine wrote:

If you think about it, no one else in the play stays loyal or acts fairly towards Hamlet. Rosencrantz and Gildenstern act as spies, and therefore forfeit their loyalty to Hamlet, or so Hamlet views it in that way. But Horatio really stays firm in his belief in his friend.

You are right, Janine. Think about it. Hamlet is essentially alone. Even before all this happened he is a Prince - that is, a man who has no one else in his social class, no one at his level, no one close enough and trusted enough to share his thoughts with. Those he is closest to are his family - his beloved father, his king and his own role model; his dear and much loved mother, loving, loyal, caring, his image for ideal womanhood; his uncle, his father's fun-loving younger (?) brother, perhaps a friend to Hamlet as he grew up while his father was off fighting; Polonius (I know he's not family, but he's close to family), his father's trusted councillor; Ophelia, his friend, his love, perhaps a possible potential future wife. Other "friends" - those he grew up with like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern - may be members of the court, but he is still their Prince, a fact which certainly can and does influence their behavior towards him.

The first thing that happens outside his ordinary world is that he goes off for school in Wittenberg. A new exciting world, a different country where he is, perhaps, not the only royal son, with new people who are not his potential subjects. And a friend. A real friend, not his subject (apparently), someone who really cares about him, amuses him, is amused by him, and who is not afraid to tell truth to power.

At the beginning of th play, just think what Hamlet has lost. His father has died; his mother, far from mourning the husband and king she has purported to love and respect all these years, has betrayed him (and by extension, Hamlet) by marrying in extraordinary haste, of all people, his uncle who has not only married his mother, but also usurped his throne! And even trusted Polonius is now a sycophant, sucking up to the new king. He has lost his whole family and his country as well. The best thing he could do is return to Wittenberg where he has been happy and where he can remove himself from the sources of his pain, but Gertrude entreats him not to go and Claudius supports her, leaving him no choice but to stay and suffer each day at the sight of them together. Then Ophelia, all of a sudden, refuses to see him. And finally, Hamlet is confronted by the Ghost telling him that he did not die naturally but was foully murdered. Hamlet's isolation is complete. Even his old friends, R&G, betray him by their spying for the alleged murderer, and ultimately by conveying him to what should be his death.

Through all this, the only constant, and, I believe, the only thing that keeps Hamlet from truly going mad, is the ever loyal and steadfast Horatio.

Horatio is Hamlet's sounding board, his trusted friend. He gives Hamlet someone that he can pour his heart out to and share his plans. He lets us hear what Hamlet is thinking about those around him. He is the way for Hamlet to let us know what happens when he is out of our sight (as when he recounts the tale of Claudius' treachery, R&G's betrayal and his own escape with the pirates). And he is our way to see the Hamlet who existed before any of all this happened. Only with Horatio do we get to see a glimpse of the carefree younger Hamlet, bantering with his friend, sharing amusement at the cemetary with the gravedigger and then with Osric.

And for me, that is the best thing about having Horatio in the story - he is the vehicle by which we see the reflection of Hamlet that is now lost - he holds up a mirror and allows us to see both Hamlets and it is that contrast that brings the Hamlet we all know through the play into perspective. It is the way we know that he is not by nature that melancholy, introspective, indecisive person that so many people thing he is.

But my question is... Who is Horatio?

We know something about his nature by his actions in the play. But who is he? It is implied that he is not a Dane - Hamlet tells him "We'll teach you to drink deep ere you depart" as though he is a stranger there, and Horatio asks, when Hamlet complains about the Danish drinking habits, "Is it a custom?" as though he is not familiar with it, and yet apparently the guards know him well enough to ask him to watch for the Ghost with them, and he speaks, on the rampart, of "our last king" as though he was a Dane. And he speaks to Hamlet of the King as though he knew the king, even saying when Hamlet asks him if the Ghost's beard was grizzly "It was as I have seen it in his life." So he must have been at least a visitor at court sometime in the past. Yet Hamlet clearly refers to him as a stranger "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome" speaking of the Ghost.

Additionally, Horatio seems completely at home at the court and is challenged by no one. Even when Hamlet is exiled and has left for England, Horatio, rather than returning to Wittenberg, stays on in Elsinor. When Gertrude has to deal with Ophelia, it is Horatio stands up for Ophelia and convinces Gertrude to see her. And somehow Hamlet knows that he is still there so that he can send him the letter to let him know that he has returned and to meet him. Could it be that Hamlet and Horatio have planned together that he would stay and watch out for Ophelia while Hamlet is gone, and keep an eye on the court for Hamlet? We don't know but it's an interesting thought...

Horatio is, for me, a mystery, and I find that endlessly intriguing. He is a vital element of both of my interpretations of Hamlet (in very different ways for each). I'd love to hear who you think he is...

[Janine]

Fascinating - clap, clap for msdirector! Understandable, Petrarch, I am busy now, too, and actually stopped home briefly; Iwill be on my way again in a minute. I had to read a few posts first. Glad I am not a thread killer. Several others I have posted in ended with me --- I was beginning to wonder about that.
Glad that you and Petrarch joined in. Hey, where's Virgil? Oh my, he may feel ganged up on again! Poor Virg I read your long post - P - like I said long posts are after my own heart - but will definitely read and study what you said, later when I get back.
Glad both of your found the thread! I want to quote some of msdirector's paragraphs...since they are so well thought out and well said...my exact thoughts but put much clearer.
To all of you, Horatio has long been one of my most cherished characters of Shakespeare's... period. I feel complete awe at the end of the play, when his loyalty makes him desire to go as far, as follow Hamlet to his grave.
Yes, such a good question - just who was Horatio?
Will be anxious to hear what Petrarch has to say and also Virgil. Sure everyone will have great ideas

[Petrarch's Love]

Hey all. I'm rested enough that I'm no longer refering to myself in the third person now, so here I am to talk about Horatio.

First off, everyone's made so many good points thus far that it's hard to top them. I agree that I don't think of Horatio as necessarily being a Stoic. However, I think his nature can sometimes be stoical. It's true that to be a Stoic implies a choice and a conscious effort to control the passions, but it is also possible to describe someone who is rational and dispassionate by nature (as Horatio is) as having stoical qualities. I don't see any evidence in the play that Horatio is neccessarily a voicebox for Stoic philosophy (though some scholars have seen some of Hamlet's lines as mirroring stoic passages from Seneca). Still, in Hamlet's speech describing Horatio, which Ms Director quoted above, I think it would be both fair and accurate to apply the adjective "stoical" to "one, in suff'ring all, that suffers nothing," or "who is not passions slave."

What I find interesting about the way this discussion began was that the initial instinct was to ask what Horatio is, or what he symbolizes, and I think it's not uncommon for people to tend to think of Horatio in this way: as a symbol of something. Possibly this is partly a result of the fact that the character is doubtless best known as the guy to whom Hamlet said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/ Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" (1.5.174-75), and so there's this idea going around that he must be realated to some specific philosophy (which is not necessarily what the line intends). Horatio functions in the play as a foil for Hamlet, and so I think there is a tendency (perhaps not a completely misguided one) to try to define what Horatio is and what ideas he represents in order to get at something about Hamlet's state of mind. Some of you, however, have been suggesting that you see Horatio as a more three dimensional character, as someone who doesn't only function as the representation of a concept like "reason" or "stoicism," who perhaps isn't even functioning solely as a dramatic foil for Hamlet's character, but as a slightly fuller character whom we can sense has certain feelings, especially in the final act of the play. So I would like to complicate MsDirector's question, "Who is Horatio," a little by changing it to "Who or what is Horatio?" Is he a symbol of something like rational thought? Is he a dramatic device: something like a chorus or narrator as Janine suggests, or perhaps a "sounding board," as I think Ms Director termed it? Or is he in some way more of a who? Can we understand something of Horatio as a character in a more developed sense of the term? Is it possible that who he is may be mirrored in his discussions with Hamlet in a way similar to that in which MsDirector suggests that Hamlet's true character is mirrored in his discussions with Horatio? Or (as seems likely) can Horatio be understood as some combination of all these, and if so to what extent is each a factor?
(I have no coherent answer to any of these questions. I'm just getting them out there for discussions' sake).

[Virgil]

Horatio is, for me, a mystery, and I find that endlessly intriguing. He is a vital element of both of my interpretations of Hamlet (in very different ways for each). I'd love to hear who you think he is...

We had decided that the ghost was a mystery. Horatio too! Everything is a mystery in theis play.

I have not looked for the quote that Horatio is referred to as a stoic. But if all three of you dispute it, I must be wrong. I may be confusing it with critical commentary that may have referred to Horatio as a stoic. I continue to see him as a stoic. The relationship between Hamlet and Julius Ceasar is very strong (uh-oh, I may have opened another can of worms, but yes they are) and I think Shakespeare implied that Horatio is a stoic like Brutus. Yes, Janine, Shakespeare used lots of contrast, as any good writer does. And Horatio provides the perfect contrast to Hamlet.

I think Horatio makes sense as a stoic, someone who takes on the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and unlike Hamlet calmly neither contemplates suicide or irrational or impulsive.

[Janine]

Hi, I read all your posts finally. I just got home, but I may soon be referring to myself in the third person, too. Like this - "Janine is way past fatique and trying to grasp whese complicated posts and ideas." As someone on another link said, "her head is filled with noodles!" Anyway - tomorrow I will read all the posts over again and try to sensibily comment.

Virgil, it was very gracious of you say you might be wrong in the stoic reference. I understood your thoughts but thought stoic was off the mark a bit.
For now I have one question - how can you say that "Horatio........, unlike Hamlet calmly neither contemplates suicide or irrational or impulsive"...I take it you meant to add "behavior"? In the final scene Horatio expresses a desire, maybe even irrationally and impulsively, to drink the final drops of poison and die with Hamlet. His closing lines about Hamlet being taken to his rest by angels hardly seems to me to be something a stoic would say. These lines are wrought with deep emotion and beauty.

Also, and I love the part of the scene that msdirector quoted, one of my favorite speeches as well:

"Since my dear soul was mistress of her choice
And could of men distinguish, her election
Hath sealed thee for herself. For thou has been
As one, in suff'ring all, that suffers nothing,
A man that Fortune's buffets and rewards
Hath ta'en with equal thanks; and blest are those
Whose blood and judgement are so well commingled
That they are not a pipe for Fortune's finger
To sound what stop she please. Give me that man
Who is not passions slave, and I will wear him
In my heart's core, ay, in my heart of heart,
As I do thee."

How could Hamlet have related to Horatio had he been an unfeeling and cold person? If Hamlet was so passionate, how could he have had a friend who felt distant or nothing for Hamlet's situation - he cold not have found refuge in such a friend, in my opinion. I will address more about this tomorrow.

Well, Janine (back in the third person like P) has to bail out now. She is too tired and will pick up on this tomorrow.
Good thread and good discussion so far! Good ideas by all

[Virgil]

I found it. Horatio is a stoic! It's at the end of Act V, Scene 2. Hamlet is dying and Horatio contemplates commiting suicide .

HAMLET
Heaven make thee free of it! I follow thee.
I am dead, Horatio. Wretched queen, adieu!
You that look pale and tremble at this chance,
That are but mutes or audience to this act,
Had I but time--as this fell sergeant, death,
Is strict in his arrest--O, I could tell you--
But let it be. Horatio, I am dead;
Thou livest; report me and my cause aright
To the unsatisfied.

HORATIO
Never believe it:
I am more an antique Roman than a Dane:
Here's yet some liquor left.

More antiquie Roman is clearly a reference to stocism. In fact the suicide is for honor, not despair, a stoic action, reminiscent of those who committ suicide at the end of the play in Julius Ceasar.

I think I should outline one of the links between Hamlet and Julius Ceasar. In Julius Ceasar, we have a leading character, Brutus, who is struggling with the notion of Justice, and his internal conflict is over the question of whether it is just to kill Ceasar. Along with him is Cassius, an impulsive, more rash person who Shakespeare contrasts to Brutus. In Hamlet, Shakespeare reverses the nature of the characters. The leading character is Hamlet, who like Brutus is struggling with the question of Justice and whether to kill Claudius, but here is the rash, impulsive one. His contrastng interlocutor is Horatio, the stoic. The two plays are almost opposite sides of a coin.