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Thread: Translation

  1. #1
    Sasha
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    Translation

    Every single translator has and will fail miserably at translating Homer. Many say this, but for the wrong reasons. My reasons are not that his Greek elegance is inimitable, nor that we are too remote in time and culture, nor even that his genius cannot be surpassed. I shall explicate why these are not valid reasons, and then give my reason for why all translations fall short of the mark. <br><br>Many scholars (including some distinguished translators) make the claim that the Odyssey can only be truly appreciated in Greek. Nonsense, the elegance of many of the epithets is capturable in english (contrary to what many thhink.) Where Homer refers to ροδοδακτuλος 'Ηώς Lattimore gives us rosy-fingered daw, which, I agree, falls short of the mark. Fitzgerald, on the other hand, uses "young dawn with finger tips of rose." This is prosodically and poetically equivalent to ροδοδακτuλος 'Ηώς. Also "when primeval dawn spread on the eastern sky her fingers of pink light" is a fine translation, perhaps even more so by assigning a gender to dawn in imitation of the Greek Ηώς who was also a goddess.<br><br>As for the many claims that we are too remote in time and culture to fully appreciate Homer, this would be true if the culture of Homer's Greece were utterly alien to the average person as, say, the culture surrounding that of Gilgamesh. This is not the case however, almost all of us remember being schooled in Hellenic and/or Roman mythology in our school days and thus we can, to a satisfactory extent, connect with Homer's world. <br><br>Homer's genius, while great, is not entirely unmatchable. There have been poets and translators whose native talent far outshone Homer's. Fitzgerald is one such and so was Pope. Many poets, in my opinion, such as Zhukovsky, Pushkin, Goethe, Nims and others have or had a genius that could blow Homer's out of the proverbial water. <br><br>Yet all translations of the Odyssey and Iliad have failed. <br><br>They are boring for the same reason why many scholars of ancient Greek find the original Greek to be boring. The two mega-epics were originally oral entertainment to be heard, not read. Think about our conventions in writing. 22 monotontous mentionings of a "rosy-fingered dawn" and 6 of a "wine-dark sea" and 11 of a "sweet day of return" would definitely resound as cliché in any piece of contemporary literature. Not so to Homer's own contemporaries whose poetic nerves and lexical triggers were used to something very different in an oral illiterate culture. Yet tape-recorded versions of the Odyssey are no more inspiring or useful than a lullabye to lull a child to sleep. This is because another key ingredient is missing. Homer not only recited his poems but used a κίθαρις, a sort of stringed instrument similar to a lyre. Homer did not sing his poems however, but he used the κίθαρις to mark rhythm, to play a musical interlude while he was thinking of something (let us not forget there was a certain amount of improvisation involved) and to indicate tone, pitch, and even mood (playing in a major chord to begin a thought, heightening it to a minor as the action or suspense rises, and resolving into major after some climax.) This musical accompaniment was indispensable to Homer and his contemporaries. The Homeric Epics must not be read, for that would drain them of their power, but recited, with the aid of some instrument, if not the κίθαρις then at least some instrument capable of polytonics such as a piano. If a tape of this caliber were made, I am confident that the English-speaking world would see new virtue in Homer.<br><br>Trying to Read homer from a book in any language is like trying to read Beethoven from a musical score instead of listening to a performance.

  2. #2

    Smile Translating Homer

    Hi there!
    I totally agree with you. Performing Homer would include reciting the text, rather than reading it in silence. Furthermore, stock phrases that Homer used and that reappear again and again throughout the text are elements of oral tradition which the listeners used to revel in. Even when recited, they can become rather laborious for modern ears.
    For us today bringing out these phrases in an intelligent way is a great artistic task, but I think it can be done.
    Cheers,
    Hannes

  3. #3
    Isn't it amazing that Homer would right something so long to be sung? I very much agree that the English translation and dry-reading don't do the poem justice.

  4. #4
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I wonder if anyone would care to comment on the Robert Fagels translation. I read the Fitzgerald and the Fagel's translation and enjoyed the Fagels best. But I have no idea how it relates back to the original Greek.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    I must have read a strange translation. It says it is translated by Butcher and Lang.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    I wonder if anyone would care to comment on the Robert Fagels translation. I read the Fitzgerald and the Fagel's translation and enjoyed the Fagels best. But I have no idea how it relates back to the original Greek.
    I have read very little of the Odyssey in Greek (I am more familiar with the Iliad), and I have not read either of the translations you mentioned (I read Lattimore's), but if you post some samples (maybe there are some passages you were especially curious about?) I'd be happy to take a look when I get home tonight, and offer whatever comments I can.

    The original poster (sasha) is overstating his thesis quite a bit. AFAIK, there is not really a consensus as to just how the poems were performed, and both epics have been deeply touching in translation for thousands of years. You can hear an attempt to re-create a performance here.

  7. #7
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim
    I have read very little of the Odyssey in Greek (I am more familiar with the Iliad), and I have not read either of the translations you mentioned (I read Lattimore's), but if you post some samples (maybe there are some passages you were especially curious about?) I'd be happy to take a look when I get home tonight, and offer whatever comments I can.

    The original poster (sasha) is overstating his thesis quite a bit. AFAIK, there is not really a consensus as to just how the poems were performed, and both epics have been deeply touching in translation for thousands of years. You can hear an attempt to re-create a performance here.
    Actually I quote an extended passage in the Who Is Your Hero thread: http://www.online-literature.com/for...8&page=1&pp=15
    Go the post#15
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Katie
    Isn't it amazing that Homer would right something so long to be sung? I very much agree that the English translation and dry-reading don't do the poem justice.
    According to one of the more popular theories, the Homeric epics, as we know them, were not composed to be performed in their entirety, but rather grew from traditional oral performances, which were all shorter. These shorter elements (so the theory goes) were stitched together into the long poems we know as The Odyssey and The Iliad. With respect to the whole two-plus millenia of their reception, they were probably read far more than they were ever sung.

    I'd be very interested to hear in what ways you felt the English translation and dry-reading fell short of doing the poem justice.

  9. #9
    Well, as a bit of a composer myself, I always feel that lyrics lose something without the music and even though it's nice, the expression isn't nearly as beautiful without music. I'm a bit confused though, if the epics were meant to be sung in the first place. I'm not very knowledgable on the subject, really. But regardless, in the original language, I'm sure that it had a beautiful meter and rhythm to the words that is missing now in translation. That's one of the major reasons why I don't think the English does the Odyssey justice. --It's a lot more believable to me now, that the Oddyssey was composed of smaller pieces. It hadn't made much sense to me before that someone would ever sing something so long!!
    Last edited by Miss_Katie; 03-30-2006 at 12:51 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Actually I quote an extended passage in the Who Is Your Hero thread: http://www.online-literature.com/for...8&page=1&pp=15
    Go the post#15
    Cool! One of my favorite passages, and one I did read in Greek (a long time ago). Like I said, I'll take a look again when I get home. Naturally, any specific questions would be helpful for directing my comments.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Katie
    I'm a bit confused though, if the epics were meant to be sung in the first place.
    Maybe the sticky issue here is what might be meant by "the first place". According to the theory I was describing, the smaller elements were sung. However, whoever it was who decided to make a long, epic whole of the traditional material might not have really envisaged the entire epic to be performed in the same way. He/she/they just thought it would be good to put the material down in writing, in a pleasing form. And he/she/they would have been right -- the written form has been monumentally successful despite being separated from the traditional method of oral performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Katie
    But regardless, in the original language, I'm sure that it had a beautiful meter and rhythm to the words that is missing now in translation.
    This is certainly true. The meter these poems were written in had a tremendous influence on subsequent Western poetry, and it is more or less futile to try to exactly mimic it in translation. Of course, there are various ways of translating Homer into English verse; Lattimore, for example, uses a free six-beat line. Although I have not read many long passages in it, I find the translation by Alexander Pope into blank verse very enjoyable.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Actually I quote an extended passage in the Who Is Your Hero thread: http://www.online-literature.com/for...8&page=1&pp=15
    Go the post#15
    In case any others are following along, this is from the Iliad, Book 6, 466 ff. For comparison, here is Lattimore's translation:
    So speaking glorious Hektor held out his arms to his baby,
    who shrank back to his fair-girdled nurse's bosom
    screaming, and frightened at the aspect of his own father,
    terrified as he saw the bronze and the crest with its horse-hair,
    nodding dreadfully, as he thought, from the peak of the helmet.
    Then his beloved father laughed out, and his honoured mother,
    and at once glorious Hektor lifted from his head the helmet
    and laid it in all its shining upon the ground. Then taking
    up his dear son he tossed him about in his arms, and kissed him,
    and lifted his voice in prayer to Zeus and the other immortals:
    'Zeus, and you other immortals, grant that this boy, who is my son,
    may be as I am, pre-eminent among the Trojans,
    great in strength, as am I, and rule strongly over Ilion;
    and some day let them say of him: "He is better by far than his father",
    as he comes in from the fighting; and let him kill his enemy
    and bring home the blooded spoils, and delight the heart of his mother.'
    So speaking he set his child again in the arms of his beloved
    wife, who took him back again to her fragrant bosom
    smiling in her tears; and her husband saw, and took pity upon her,
    and stroked her with his hand, and called her by name and spoke to her:
    'Poor Andromache! Why does your heart sorrow so much for me?
    No man is going to hurl me to Hades, unless it is fated,
    but as for fate, I think that no man yet has escaped it
    once it has taken its first form, neither the brave man nor coward.
    Go therefore back to our house, and take up your own work,
    the loom and the distaff, and see to it that your handmaidens
    ply their work also; but the men must see to the fighting,
    all men who are the people of Ilion, but I beyond others.'
    A prose translation can be found here. Contrary to what I posted above, Alexander Pope translates (594 ff) into heroic couplets (not blank verse).

    The difference between Fagles and Lattimore is not that great. Lattimore tends to be more literal. Fagles tends to use more colorful expressions, for example: 'in the same breath' vs. 'so speaking'; 'recoiled, cringing' vs. 'shrank back'; 'pressed' vs. 'took';'trying to reassure her, repeating her name' vs. 'called her by name and spoke to her'. One thing to keep in mind when evaluating the translations is that Homer's Greek is generally easy to read. Thus, a more literal translation can be said in some sense to be closer to the Greek, but can also give the wrong impression about the style if it ends up being difficult English. That said, I don't feel Lattimore's English is any harder to read than Fagles'.

    Perhaps the most interesting and substantial difference is their treatment of the end of line 489. Fagles gives 'it’s [fate is] born with us the day that we are born' while Lattimore renders it 'once it [fate] has taken its first form'. Here it is a matter of interpretation. The Greek is 'epe:n ta pro:ta gene:tai', 'when first [he/she/it] comes into being'. Fagles takes as the subject of 'comes into being' the hypothetical man escaping fate (as does Willcock and Benner) and supplies 'it's born with us' as a lacuna in the thought, while Lattimore takes fate to be the subject of 'comes into being' (which seems to be the drift of a textual variant). I am inclined to side with Fagles, Willcock, and Benner concerning the subject of 'comes into being' (but I don't have any authority; maybe I'll look it up in the big Cambridge commentary someday). In that case, the thought would be something like 'no man is free from fate (i.e., every man is bound by fate) from the time that he is born', which is slightly different than what Fagles presents.

    Another difference is that Lattimore translates into six-beat lines, which arguably approximates Homer's dactylic hexameters better than Fagles' more irregular lines.

    I hope this helps.

  13. #13
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Wow, thanks a lot Blue. That was fascinating.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Wow, thanks a lot Blue. That was fascinating.
    You're welcome. You can probably tell that I enjoy this.

    I meant to include some examples where both Fagles and Lattimore diverge from a literal reading of the text: 'lifting a prayer' / 'lifted his voice in prayer' for 'spoke, praying' (or 'spoke in prayer'); 'why so desperate? Why so much grief for me?' / 'Why does your heart sorrow so much for me?' for 'please don't be overly grieved in your heart'.

    Hopefully my comments give some sense as to how much freedom the translators take with the text.

  15. #15
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim
    You're welcome. You can probably tell that I enjoy this.

    I meant to include some examples where both Fagles and Lattimore diverge from a literal reading of the text: 'lifting a prayer' / 'lifted his voice in prayer' for 'spoke, praying' (or 'spoke in prayer'); 'why so desperate? Why so much grief for me?' / 'Why does your heart sorrow so much for me?' for 'please don't be overly grieved in your heart'.

    Hopefully my comments give some sense as to how much freedom the translators take with the text.
    Yes. Are you a translator yourself? You are apparently well versed in ancient Greek. How different is modern Greek from say 5th century BC Greek?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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