Evolution AND creation: reconciling the two

[water lily]

As Pendragon pointed out in the thread "Evolution vs. Creation". Throwing bits of evidence at each other was leading nowhere. Everyone seemed convinced of their stance. So rather than looking at Evolution VERUS Creation. Let's look at Evolution AND Creation. I know there are many out there who can reconcile the two, who believe in a god, or in a spiritual power and in evolution. What is it that you believe? How does this affect your views on the rest of the bible, or the quaran or whatever else?

-water lily

ps. can we try to stick to discussion rather than debate on this thread. I'm just so exhausted of all the arguing, and I want to get a better understanding of why some religous people don't see a disparity between their religion and evolution; whereas others see a disparity so broad that they're impossible to join. Let me know your thoughts.

[Whifflingpin]

I don't see any disparity because evolution is simply a mechanism. It is just one aspect of the created universe.

The "proof" of evolution does not depend, in my view, on fossil dating and the like, but on sex. If there is a Creator, then she created sexual reproduction of species. This shows that she intended that there should be change and development. Had that not been so, then reproduction of all species would be like that of the amoeba, where offspring are identical to parents. The universe was not created to be static and unchanging.

I think, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that the primary function of religion is to offer answers not to "How?" but to "Why?" type questions.

I guess, when the question is asked "Why is there evolution?" the religious people would answer "because God has such and such a purpose." I would expect the atheists to have greater difficulty in discussing evolution, because the very word has implications of order and progress from lower to higher forms. The discoverers of evolution were in no greater doubt than their religious contemporaries that man was at the pinnacle of evolution, but what they thought the purpose of it was I do not know.

Enquirer: "Why does evolution occur?"
Atheist: "There is no reason behind it at all."
Enquirer: "Oh, OK .... so why does it happen?"
.

[Green Lady]

That makes a lot of sense. If humans and even other species are evolving, wouldn't there be a purpose behind it all? Things don't just happen, there has to have been an action and then a reaction.

[jollyollie]

Evolution is a knee jerk response in nature to changes in biophysical conditions or availability of abiotic trace elements. It is the response of organelles, organised tissues, organ systems and organisms to adjust to life threatening challenges or changes. You either evolve or you are toast.
Babies stick things in thier mouths frequently as this is an evolutionary response to a highly developed immune system, to allow thier acquired immunity to visit the external universe. Human women are the only mammalian species that has pronounced mamaries from puberty on throughout life to increase thier chances of being selected as mates, so as to carry on thier genetics through progeny. I didnt make it up; its called sexual selection. Darwin studied finches that had many various different beak structures so that they could opportunise separate neiches, and not have to compete with other established sub species of finches.
Evolution is so reliable in nature that mathemeticians could almost predict it with the use of constants and other numerical achievements. Its why we are all here to enjoy this noncompetetive moment together, away from the tv.

[SirRupert]

Biblicaly speaking.....THEY DON'T MIX!!

[sdr4jc]

I believe in God and in the creation depicted in Genesis. I believe God spoke life into existence, and I accept that I do not have the capacity to fully understand that. I believe that God created animals and God created man. I do not believe that man evolved from apes, and nothing can convince me otherwise.

However, I also believe in evolution on a small scale. I think the term "adaptation" better describes it though. God equipped us (and by us, I refer to man and animals) with an instinct to survive, and subsequently we adapt to our environments.

I cannot soundly link evolution and creation. For me, the two cannot coexist, much in the same way as light and darkness. I'm interested to see other responses though.

[SirRupert]

" I think the term "adaptation" better describes it though. God equipped us (and by us, I refer to man and animals) with an instinct to survive, and subsequently we adapt to our environments. "

I second that!!!

[Virgil]

The "proof" of evolution does not depend, in my view, on fossil dating and the like, but on sex. If there is a Creator, then she created sexual reproduction of species. This shows that she intended that there should be change and development. Had that not been so, then reproduction of all species would be like that of the amoeba, where offspring are identical to parents. The universe was not created to be static and unchanging.

Hey Whiff, this is quite profound. I've heard this debate going on for as long as I've been conscious, and I think (or so I thought) heard all arguemnets, but I've never heard this angle to the arguement. Very interesting. Did you get this from somewhere else, or is this your original thought?

Edit: You know this could easily have been a corollary to D.H. Lawrence.

[Pendragon]

First, thank you Water Lily, for the opening statement.

Now: The reason I find no problem in believing in both evolution and creationism is that people get bogged down in Genesis with the time factor. I have always said that God cannot be placed into what humans recognize as time. A good reason for this is that the Bible records that "God would come down in the cool of the eve and walk with Adam and Eve in the Garden." So how long were they there? See? Who knows? The geneologies count time from the casting out from the Garden.

That man and beast and plant life have adapted or evolved is vastly obvious, since we are not all alike. So many animals and plants and things are very specialized, adapted to a specific purpose. This is working evolution, and quite undeniable.

But a birth can take place where there is nothing pysically wrong except that the person or animal is not alive. And nothing we can do will give that body life. There is where God comes into the picture. Something can be built to perfection, but something must fire the motor before it can work. Call me crazy, but in the beginning, God fired that motor, and it still runs-- but over the centuries it has had to change blueprints time after time after time.

Remember. all of this is one man's simplistic opinion. God bless.

[Whifflingpin]

"Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
The "proof" of evolution does not depend, in my view, on fossil dating and the like, but on sex. If there is a Creator, then she created sexual reproduction of species. This shows that she intended that there should be change and development. Had that not been so, then reproduction of all species would be like that of the amoeba, where offspring are identical to parents. The universe was not created to be static and unchanging.



Hey Whiff, this is quite profound. I've heard this debate going on for as long as I've been conscious, and I think (or so I thought) heard all arguemnets, but I've never heard this angle to the arguement. Very interesting. Did you get this from somewhere else, or is this your original thought?

Edit: You know this could easily have been a corollary to D.H. Lawrence."

As far as I can remember, it is my original thought - in so far as that is possible. I hereby assert my right etc etc

I've never thought of it as a corollary to DHL; what particular aspect of his thought does it relate to?

.

[jollyollie]

Many would agree that some people need a belief in life to direct them, as they are insecure with the idea that that they are actually alone in this reality and there isnt a supreme conciousness to tell them how to live thier lives. Some people do understand that if if you want to get a drivers licence, for instance, going to church and praying isnt going to teach you how to drive: you have to do it on your own.
Some people dont have to rely themselves for anything, and thus are accustomed to being directed and expect that being told what to do and what to believe in is the norm. Having faith in yourself is better than having faith in a televangelist. At least when you know that when you fail to pass your driving test you cant blame "god", just yourself for not boning up the material. This way you never have to slag Jesus when your whole belief system comes crumbling down: you can only blame yourself.
Darwin left nothing to chance, and relied on science to prove his point to a bunch of bigots, ignoramouses and imbeciles.
It would be ideal if we could all just believe that all of our problems would be solved by sending Reverend Big Hair some cash and hearing your name get read out on TV. Unfortunately, this is the route to hell on earth.

[Theshizznigg]

Does anyone remember Flesh Gordon? Oh well worth a try.

I have a question, how can you reconcile two totally different idealism?
Nobody want to accept the fact that they might be wrong, so they will stubbornly defend their ideals, even if it was that the earth is really a hot dog, and were all fungus that grows on it.

Trying to reconcile the two is a bit like you taking the place of Jerry Springer, I can see the show, now.
Christianity, and Evolution, fighting over who is their man, all the while he comes on stage goes, "I'm neither y'alls I'm his now." Evolution stands up, "Bubba my cousin!" the chair throwing ensues and in the end everyone has a good laugh and returns to reality at hand.

"I'd challenge you to a battle of the wits, but I don't face unarmed opponents."
- Guybrush Threepwood

[Pendragon]

Some people do understand that if if you want to get a drivers licence, for instance, going to church and praying isnt going to teach you how to drive: you have to do it on your own.

We could all just believe that all of our problems would be solved by sending Reverend Big Hair some cash and hearing your name get read out on TV. Unfortunately, this is the route to hell on earth.

Hi Jolly

May I say this here without hopefully being enflaming. Going to church and praying alone isn't going to get you to heaven either. You will have to sooner or later come to the conclusion that you ARE responsible for your actions, and must depend on a Higher Power for forgivness. Many people think a church is going to save them, but it will not. They remain the same old sinner they always were, nothing changed except now they occupy a pew a couple times a week.

And not all preachers are "Reverend Big Hair" and have TV shows. Some of us are poor as church mice and have very small congregations. What we do, not many would do.

[Stanislaw]

Flesh Gordon of the planet porno? That was a really really really bad movie.


Anywho, evolution could co-exist with creationism, The biblical account infact does mirror the evolutionary process (the steps of the evolution of life)

Also, maybe creationism is just creationism...when one is playing a video game for example: wolfenstine...one accepts that the characters were just created, not that the programmer programmed a pioxilated primordial soup that while the program is loading evolves into badly pixilated nazis. So maybe we are part of a grand program, written in perfect programming language by a divine programmer.

Does anyone remember Flesh Gordon? Oh well worth a try.

I have a question, how can you reconcile two totally different idealism?
Nobody want to accept the fact that they might be wrong, so they will stubbornly defend their ideals, even if it was that the earth is really a hot dog, and were all fungus that grows on it.

Trying to reconcile the two is a bit like you taking the place of Jerry Springer, I can see the show, now.
Christianity, and Evolution, fighting over who is their man, all the while he comes on stage goes, "I'm neither y'alls I'm his now." Evolution stands up, "Bubba my cousin!" the chair throwing ensues and in the end everyone has a good laugh and returns to reality at hand.

"I'd challenge you to a battle of the wits, but I don't face unarmed opponents."
- Guybrush Threepwood

[jollyollie]

Flesh Gordon of the planet porno? That was a really really really bad movie.


Anywho, evolution could co-exist with creationism, The biblical account infact does mirror the evolutionary process (the steps of the evolution of life)

Also, maybe creationism is just creationism...when one is playing a video game for example: wolfenstine...one accepts that the characters were just created, not that the programmer programmed a pioxilated primordial soup that while the program is loading evolves into badly pixilated nazis. So maybe we are part of a grand program, written in perfect programming language by a divine programmer.

SCientic method has been formulated to sort through the bullsh*t that people attempt to pass off as truth. It is a given that evolution is scientific truth, so it cannot ride along side IDers whims. The mere thought that ID is comparable to scientific thought is a pipe dream crafted by IDers to slip antiquated thought through the back door.
As for the character of other preachers, I dont htink that is what I was driving at, Pen.My point was that these are the representives of ID, like it or not. The ambassadors of Darwins theories are published University professors and multitudes of science students world wide. There is a bit of a difference.
ID and evolution cannot co exist and those who unhappy about this should realise the reality of the situation and adapt, as do midge flies, finches and sticklebacks.