Atheists....

[XXdarkclarityXX]

To XXdarkclarityXX:

It appears that you are unaware of the wide variety of atheistic philosophies available. ANALOGY POLICE! I think it's more like saying, "I support the troops in Iraq, but I don't necessarily agree with the ideals of every soldier--only the overall cause for which they fight."

I happen to think that religion can be an overall positive influence on the lives of the majority of people IN GENERAL. I simply don't feel that a theistic religion is right FOR ME. Just as trying to qualify oneself as 100% is one mistake, another is thinking that the same religion or philosophy is right for everyone.

Would you mind citing these different atheistic philosophies of which you speak? Atheism, by definition, is simply the rejection of religion. How can one make variety with that? In response to your "analogy correction", what do you mean by "not necessarily agreeing with the ideals of every soldier?" The soldier is the war, and the war is the soldier. We are not talking on an individual level here because a community is about the community, not the individual. If a religious person practices religion and believes in a god, it really doesn't matter why they are doing it. The fact is they are and because they are, what they stand for is contrary to atheistic thought. This can only mean that they themselves are against atheism. So, why support that?

I had no intention of stating that one religion was right for everyone, but I will state that once an individual is a declared member of a religious group he/she loses his or her individuality. If they feel the need to regain such individuality by disconnecting to certain doctrines of the said group, then they need to leave. Want a good example? Cafeteria Catholics- they pick and choose what they feel like believing. If you can't accept parts of a religion, why bother being a part of it? On another note, why do you think the Catholic Church is blamed for priest misconduct more than the individual priest? The priest is a symbol of Catholicism, and when a priest screws up the Catholic Church screws up. When you communicate your desire to support religion, you communicate the tendency for atheists to do the same and that is against the identity of our community. If you wish to go against atheistic beliefs, simply do not be atheist. If you are atheist then you do not support religion. If you do support religion, then you should not identify yourself as an atheist.

[RobinHood3000]

Rather militant, aren't we?

Noooo, atheism is the lack of a deity in one's religion. For example, Confucianism, Daoism, and some forms of Buddhism are all example of atheistic religions.

No, the soldier is NOT the war. Soldiers are not defined as people by war--it is what they do, not what they are.

I strongly disagree with your "if they're not with us, they're against us" philosophy. To put it in geek terms, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." Your argument is more or less based around the contention that if you agree with religion, you're anti-atheist, and if you're atheist, you're not allowed to like religious people. Kinda makes for a lonely lifestyle, doesn't it? I happen to know plenty of religious people who are more than compassionate towards atheists (as a matter of fact, I'm dating one), and even to those who are less than understanding, I try to be at least civil to them.

Do you know what "tolerance" means? This is not a war being the theists and atheists--if anything, atheists and theists should pursue understanding of each other's point of view. Attacking the religious isn't going to improve their opinions or acceptance of atheists.

Now I'm going to segue into something a little firmer--nothing personal, it's just that the statement makes a better point if said angrily: How DARE you question my loyalty as an atheist!! Being an atheist doesn't mean I don't support religion, it means I don't believe in it as a philosophy. That being said, I still believe in it as a concept. Religion improves the overall quality of life of most people who seek it--how is that a bad thing?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Robin,

We obviously have conflicting views regarding this topic. For the sake of productivity within this particular thread, I request that you send any remaining sentiments via PM to me. I personally have voiced my opinion sufficiently and have no desire to discuss this topic further. However, should you feel the need to "send in the cavalry" in this little skirmish that has been created between us, I more than welcome any sort of response that you may have. I just don't think it's appropriate to have an elongated pissing contest in public.

[RobinHood3000]

Mmm, actually, that last one pretty much summed it up fer me. Truce?

Could have been worse--at least this particular entanglement was semi-related to the subject matter.

Uh, what were we talking about in this thread before we started arguing?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Now, I'm NOT an atheist, but I've always wondered what exactly an atheist thinks or believes (now there's a contradiction if you've ever seen one! athesist and believe might as well see if you have a believer who disbelieves. )

Now what exactly does an atheist believe?? What is the definition you would give to describe an atheist?

I don't know if this is going to a popular thread or not, but I'll give it a try...

I suppose this should serve as an adequate refresher for the intended purpose of the thread. And yes, a truce would be favorable.

[emily655321]

Actually, I think that particular bout of extended bickering served well to answer the first post of the thread. "What do atheists believe?" Well, as we've just seen, some atheists believe that to be an atheist they can have no respect for religion, and that one's beliefs are synonymous with who they are as a person (interestingly enough, this dualism vs. monism argument is also being waged in the Evolution V. Creationism thread); while some others believe that atheism is just that: purely a personal lack of belief, which still allows for them to hold respect for those who believe differently. I think it was an excellently encapsulated example (how's that for assonance?) of the variances within the subscribers of a particular philosophy. I think it also goes a long way to support the argument that atheism does not represent a complete belief system; the non-belief in a god clearly leaves room for many varying viewpoints in other areas of philosophy, namely with regard to other human beings.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Emily,

I think you'll find that was alliteration and not assonance. Assonance is repetition of vowel sounds such as, "He was bloated and gloated that he floated, we voted!" whereas alliteration is the repetition of an initial letter.

Petty point precisely put, pardon my pedantry.

And back to the subject; atheism is a belief in the non-existence of any god. It is not inconsistent with believing in some of the ideals of those that believe the opposite. Personally, I applaud the work that christians do in providing relief in famine-struck countries, but not their efforts in handing out bibles to all and sundry. This is neither hypocrisy nor inconsistent with atheistic belief. Good works are good works whether done in the name of religion or humanitarianism.

[RobinHood3000]

Actually, it IS assonance (short "e" sounds abound). In addition, alliteration only applies to consonant sounds. And I couldn't agree more--so long as good deeds are done, do we dare declare the doers dunces?

[rachel]

M'LOrd,
is there in fact anything you don't know about , I mean anything at all?
No wonder you are the one and only ruler of Sherwood forest-even the trees bow to you.

[Virgil]

I thought for sure Xamonas was correct, but upon looking it up, but I'm not sure if either is correct. From Patterns of Poetry: An Encylopedia of Forms by Miller Williams.

Rhyme is the relationship between words with different consonants immediately proceding the final unaccented vowels and identical sounds thereafter (pillow/willow, go/know, undoing/construing). Assonance is the relationship between words with different consonants immediately preceeding and following the last accented vowels, which vowels have identical sounds (hit/will, disturb/bird, absolute/unglued). Consonance is the relationship between words whose final accented vowel sounds are different but with the same consonant frame (truck/trick, billion/bullion, impelling/compiling, trance/trounce). Alliteration is the relationship between words with identical consonants preceeding the first accented vowel and differing sounds on that vowel, on the subsequent consonant, if any, and possibly, but not necessarily, on all following sounds (slip/slide, glowing/glare).

Alliteration is strickly consonants, so in that respect, Robin is correct. This surprised me, because like Xamonas I thought words starting with vowels were alliteration too. But what Emily wrote was not assonance either, according to the definition. I'm going to have to explore this further.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I shall coin a new 'Unofficial Word", Alliterassonance, to describe this phenomenon.

Unless somebody knows of an official one that'll do the job...

[Virgil]

From A Handlist of Rhetorical Terms, second edition, by Richard A. Lanham.

Alliteration - Homoeoprophoron.
Originally, recurring of an initial consonant sound (and so a type of Consonance), but now sometimes used of vowel sounds as well (where it overlaps with Assonace)...Recurrence of both kinds of alliteration at once (ark, art, arm) yields what is sometimes called "front rhyme."

Assonance
Identity or similarity in sound between internal vowels in neighboring words.

So, Xamonas is correct. What Emily wrote, by contempory ussage is alliteration. It is definitely not assonance. Sorry Robin.

[RobinHood3000]

Eh, I went by Merriam-Webster's, there's no shame in that.

[Virgil]

I shall coin a new 'Unofficial Word", Alliterassonance, to describe this phenomenon.

Unless somebody knows of an official one that'll do the job...

Hey, that's not a bad idea. I wonder how you submit that?

[Xamonas Chegwe]

...just don't get into the difference between one foot and another, that always does my brain in!

I'm happy to agree, as with religion and atheism, that there are different belief systems surrounding poetic terms. Right and wrong are far too absolute - although they definitely are alliterative!