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Thread: Psycho Killer, The Russian Edition

  1. #76
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    thanks poppin, i'll keep my eyes peeled for it.

    nothing showed up in your second part of that post though. does it for you, and just maybe not for me?

    Sancho, you just reminded me of hot tub time machine which is really not worth watching, and a little of about time which is delightful and totally worth watching.

    haven't started part II yet, but danik, im confident all the mental and physical reactions poppin described are post-murder and attributable to it, so at least raskols not a sociopath.

    in the meantime...

    a short poll:

    will the authorities discover raskol's crime? I lean towards no

    will he confess them? I lean towards yes

  2. #77
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    bounty
    nothing showed up in your second part of that post though. does it for you, and just maybe not for me?

    Am surprised it does not appear on your screen.

    The title is Time And Teresa Golowitz - The New Twilight Zone 1985 TV Series on The Haunted Channel within You Tube. It was based on a story written by Pete (Parke) Godwin who was a pal of mine many years ago. He was one of those guys who you never forget.




    Re your short poll, I prefer not to spoil. But they are good questions.
    When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent

    ~ Isaac Asimov

  3. #78
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    Attack On Horse Ch 5

    For some reason, I forgot to include a note on this incident which appeared in Ch 5.

    You know how to British and Americans the dog is regarded as mankind's best friend. To us Hispanics the horse is regarded as such. My understanding is that horses were also held in very high regard among Russians and Ukrainians. This should not come as a surprise since their ancestors were warriors who roamed Central Asia and Europe relying heavily on the horse to provide the means to make capital and conquests.

    But in this terrible incident in C & P a horse is tortured by a teamster with members of the unwashed crowd joining in on the "fun" of destroying this noble and utilitarian creature. This incident IIRC was a nightmare that Rascal had and not an actual event. But it likely represents how to his twisted mind (and those of the imaginary, unwashed, and unwise crowd) is because a noble innocent creature is reduced to a play thing, a punching bag, a crash test dummy. They use clubs and iron bars as well as kicks and the drivers whip. Perhaps the dream also foretells Rascal fate as the weight of the world and universe falls upon him for his evil. It also displays the conformity of the crowd which no longer regards old ways taught by Old Order Russia and regards those lessons as useless, frivolous, and deserving of severest retributive punishment. Indeed, one older person asks the driver, "What are you about, are you a Christian, you devil?” shouted an old man in the crowd ... “No mistake about it, you are not a Christian,” many voices were shouting in the crowd." Thus, old order Russians conformed to the traditions values and ways. New order Russians don't as shown by that rowdy and unkempt crowd.

    As a child Rascal accepted and conformed to Old Order Russia values and ways. This is why he sympathized with the horse and the nobility it represented. Before it is revealed that he had that dream of the horse, he had another dream about an old church where his sibling and grandmother are buried. It is said that he,


    "In the middle of the graveyard stood a stone church with a green cupola where he used to go to mass two or three times a year with his father and mother, when a service was held in memory of his grandmother, who had long been dead, and whom he had never seen. On these occasions they used to take on a white dish tied up in a table napkin a special sort of rice pudding with raisins stuck in it in the shape of a cross. He loved that church, the old-fashioned, unadorned ikons and the old priest with the shaking head ..."


    Now as an adult he has no regard for the church, for compliance with the law, no regard for intellectual pursuits, for material rewards in return for hard work and industry. Why are New Order Russians like this? Nihilism, socialism, anarchism, New Thought?

    Whatever the cause, these people who destroyed the horse are not Christian. He says he will perform a similar act upon the wretched old woman. Thus, he, too, is not a Christian. He is not a true Russian. His mind corrupted not just by mental deficiency, but, no doubt, from corrupting influences which to this point in the story have not been entirely revealed by the author.

    A few posts earlier I may have mentioned that there appear to be Apocalyptic warnings in these great Russian classics. That these authors were telling their society that it is on the verge of a irreversible cataclysm for various reasons - that it is too unjust, that people are under influence of alien thoughts, that Jews have an undue influence over intellectual circles and that they exert corrupting influences over many, and that people are leaving the church and the good things it represents. That when combined all this would lead to the dissipation of Russian society. I feel that this chapter starts to illustrate this in C & P.
    When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent

    ~ Isaac Asimov

  4. #79
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    To Danik's question, he was sick before the murders. At first he was just faking illness to get rid of Nastasya, the cleaning lady. But as time goes by he seems to actually be getting sick, and then sicker and sicker. Fake it til you make it, right? Even before the murders he's a bundle of nerves and he's getting nervier. He isn't eating right. He doesn't sleep well. From part one to part two he's gone from an angsty young guy who's prone to mild anxiety attacks to a full blown paranoid schizophrenic.

    As for the survey, I'll participate because I have no idea where this thing is going. I’ll bet the Po-Po (that'd be the Fuzz for you Poppin) do pursue the case. (This is pre-Soviet Russia after all.) I'm less sure about Raskol's fate. But I think I'll put him on a suicide watch.

    The old draft horse scene is hard to read, particularly because the old gal is trying so hard to please her master. The peasant who owns her and the cart is a boor. The drunken revelers think it’s fun to make the horse suffer. And the bystanders don’t have the spleen to intervene. I’ll only point out here that (again) this is pre-Soviet Russia, but not by much, and Dostoevsky had just written Notes From Underground in part as an answer to Nikolai Chernyshevsky’s nihilist novel What Is To Be Done.

    From a story standpoint, the horse scene reminded me of two things. First was the drunken hay merchant in The Mayor of Casterbridge auctioning off his wife and child for a few coins. And second was a line from Peace Frog, a Doors tune:

    Indians scattered on dawn’s highway bleeding. Ghosts crowd the young child’s fragile eggshell mind.
    Evidently as a small child Jim Morrison and his family came upon a bad wreck on a highway near Albuquerque where a number of native Americans were bleeding to death. It effected him for the rest of his life.

    More theme music. Peace Frog, The Doors:

    https://youtu.be/6lnoM25D-js?si=crTHnw3e4koJBJxq

    Hot Tub Time Machine. Great movie — "Hey, Uncle Adam, what's that thing on the back of the TV?”
    Uhhhh...

  5. #80
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    I have some weird things going on poppin with browsers, staying logged on, and being able to use the site. I end up having to use the "internet explorer" tool within my browser and so some of the posts and features here aren't supported.

    I think one of you guys mentioned this already, or something close to it---the poor horse beating scene as both warning and foreshadowing of raskols murder of the pawnbroker. whats fascinating was he received it as a warning, renounced the path, but then went ahead and took it anyways.

    i got partway into part II last night, hopefully lots more today but one really nifty line from last night:

    the conviction, that all his faculties, even memory, and the simplest power of reflection were failing him, began to be an insufferable torture. "surely it isn't beginning already! surely it isn't my punishment coming upon me? it is!"
    Last edited by bounty; 02-04-2024 at 08:16 AM.

  6. #81
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    For some reason, I forgot to include a note on this incident which appeared in Ch 5.

    You know how to British and Americans the dog is regarded as mankind's best friend. To us Hispanics the horse is regarded as such. My understanding is that horses were also held in very high regard among Russians and Ukrainians. This should not come as a surprise since their ancestors were warriors who roamed Central Asia and Europe relying heavily on the horse to provide the means to make capital and conquests.

    But in this terrible incident in C & P a horse is tortured by a teamster with members of the unwashed crowd joining in on the "fun" of destroying this noble and utilitarian creature. This incident IIRC was a nightmare that Rascal had and not an actual event. But it likely represents how to his twisted mind (and those of the imaginary, unwashed, and unwise crowd) is because a noble innocent creature is reduced to a play thing, a punching bag, a crash test dummy. They use clubs and iron bars as well as kicks and the drivers whip. Perhaps the dream also foretells Rascal fate as the weight of the world and universe falls upon him for his evil. It also displays the conformity of the crowd which no longer regards old ways taught by Old Order Russia and regards those lessons as useless, frivolous, and deserving of severest retributive punishment. Indeed, one older person asks the driver, "What are you about, are you a Christian, you devil?” shouted an old man in the crowd ... “No mistake about it, you are not a Christian,” many voices were shouting in the crowd." Thus, old order Russians conformed to the traditions values and ways. New order Russians don't as shown by that rowdy and unkempt crowd.

    As a child Rascal accepted and conformed to Old Order Russia values and ways. This is why he sympathized with the horse and the nobility it represented. Before it is revealed that he had that dream of the horse, he had another dream about an old church where his sibling and grandmother are buried. It is said that he,


    "In the middle of the graveyard stood a stone church with a green cupola where he used to go to mass two or three times a year with his father and mother, when a service was held in memory of his grandmother, who had long been dead, and whom he had never seen. On these occasions they used to take on a white dish tied up in a table napkin a special sort of rice pudding with raisins stuck in it in the shape of a cross. He loved that church, the old-fashioned, unadorned ikons and the old priest with the shaking head ..."


    Now as an adult he has no regard for the church, for compliance with the law, no regard for intellectual pursuits, for material rewards in return for hard work and industry. Why are New Order Russians like this? Nihilism, socialism, anarchism, New Thought?

    Whatever the cause, these people who destroyed the horse are not Christian. He says he will perform a similar act upon the wretched old woman. Thus, he, too, is not a Christian. He is not a true Russian. His mind corrupted not just by mental deficiency, but, no doubt, from corrupting influences which to this point in the story have not been entirely revealed by the author.

    A few posts earlier I may have mentioned that there appear to be Apocalyptic warnings in these great Russian classics. That these authors were telling their society that it is on the verge of a irreversible cataclysm for various reasons - that it is too unjust, that people are under influence of alien thoughts, that Jews have an undue influence over intellectual circles and that they exert corrupting influences over many, and that people are leaving the church and the good things it represents. That when combined all this would lead to the dissipation of Russian society. I feel that this chapter starts to illustrate this in C & P.
    Thanks for this post Poppins. On account of my eyes I haven´t read all posts on C&P yet and I´m reading then starting with the last. This horse episode is (understandably) fully erased of my memory. It helps to establish the obsessively criminal atmosphere that installs itself in Raskolnikovs sick brain long before he commits the actual crimes ( not forgetting the poor sister of the old lady who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    As to his beliefs, Raskolnikov comes up with a sort of nihilist theory. I don´t remember the details, but maybe one of you guys may refer to it if you haven´t already done so in an older post.
    "I seemed to have sensed also from an early age that some of my experiences as a reader would change me more as a person than would many an event in the world where I sat and read. "
    Gerald Murnane, Tamarisk Row

  7. #82
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bounty View Post
    I have some weird things going on poppin with browsers, staying logged on, and being able to use the site. I end up having to use the "internet explorer" tool within my browser and so some of the posts and features here aren't supported.

    I think one of you guys mentioned this already, or something close to it---the poor horse beating scene as both warning and foreshadowing of raskols murder of the pawnbroker. whats fascinating was he received it as a warning, renounced the path, but then went ahead and took it anyways.

    i got partway into part II last night, hopefully lots more today but one really nifty line from last night:
    Do you have a good PC anti virus, bounty? This annoying popping up of things which appear in more recent browsers can be at least partially if not wholly blocked. Take a look at the settings of your browser. Then go to Google Playstore and find you an gratis add blocker.
    There are several sites though, like news sites in general, who will ask you to allow adds to let you access their content.
    "I seemed to have sensed also from an early age that some of my experiences as a reader would change me more as a person than would many an event in the world where I sat and read. "
    Gerald Murnane, Tamarisk Row

  8. #83
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    To Danik's question, he was sick before the murders. At first he was just faking illness to get rid of Nastasya, the cleaning lady. But as time goes by he seems to actually be getting sick, and then sicker and sicker. Fake it til you make it, right? Even before the murders he's a bundle of nerves and he's getting nervier. He isn't eating right. He doesn't sleep well. From part one to part two he's gone from an angsty young guy who's prone to mild anxiety attacks to a full blown paranoid schizophrenic.

    As for the survey, I'll participate because I have no idea where this thing is going. I’ll bet the Po-Po (that'd be the Fuzz for you Poppin) do pursue the case. (This is pre-Soviet Russia after all.) I'm less sure about Raskol's fate. But I think I'll put him on a suicide watch.

    The old draft horse scene is hard to read, particularly because the old gal is trying so hard to please her master. The peasant who owns her and the cart is a boor. The drunken revelers think it’s fun to make the horse suffer. And the bystanders don’t have the spleen to intervene. I’ll only point out here that (again) this is pre-Soviet Russia, but not by much, and Dostoevsky had just written Notes From Underground in part as an answer to Nikolai Chernyshevsky’s nihilist novel What Is To Be Done.

    From a story standpoint, the horse scene reminded me of two things. First was the drunken hay merchant in The Mayor of Casterbridge auctioning off his wife and child for a few coins. And second was a line from Peace Frog, a Doors tune:



    Evidently as a small child Jim Morrison and his family came upon a bad wreck on a highway near Albuquerque where a number of native Americans were bleeding to death. It effected him for the rest of his life.

    More theme music. Peace Frog, The Doors:

    https://youtu.be/6lnoM25D-js?si=crTHnw3e4koJBJxq

    Hot Tub Time Machine. Great movie — "Hey, Uncle Adam, what's that thing on the back of the TV?”
    Thanks, Sancho! In modern courts, the fact that he was mentally ill when he commited the crimes should warrant R. a lighter sentence, I think.
    "I seemed to have sensed also from an early age that some of my experiences as a reader would change me more as a person than would many an event in the world where I sat and read. "
    Gerald Murnane, Tamarisk Row

  9. #84
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    its not an anti-virus thing danik, its the site and the browser interacting with each other. YouTube no longer works with internet explorer.

    im not of a mind that raskol was mentally ill prior to his committing the murder, unless we accept a sorta prima facie position that a desire to commit murder is indicative of mental illness (but I don't think that's what Sancho is saying).

    I finished the rest of the part II first chapter and oh he was thisssss close to confessing while in the police station!

    and what terrifying coincidences for him---being called to the police station to begin with, and then hearing the account of the witnesses while he was there!

  10. #85
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danik 2016 View Post
    Thanks for this post Poppins. On account of my eyes I haven´t read all posts on C&P yet and I´m reading then starting with the last. This horse episode is (understandably) fully erased of my memory. It helps to establish the obsessively criminal atmosphere that installs itself in Raskolnikovs sick brain long before he commits the actual crimes ( not forgetting the poor sister of the old lady who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    As to his beliefs, Raskolnikov comes up with a sort of nihilist theory. I don´t remember the details, but maybe one of you guys may refer to it if you haven´t already done so in an older post.


    Re his sick mind, I wonder if the death of his intended did not play some role in the degeneration of his thinking faculties. This has happened in life when someone loses a loved one. Am not sure he actually loved his betrothed by maybe he did and her death caused him to lose his marbles much of which may have been exceedingly limited from the very beginning.


    As for Rascal's nihilist mysticism, again, I don't want to needlessly spoil but it is evident from the outset that he harbors such aberrant sentiments. His ideas of negation, his beliefs that all is naught, that values are baseless and that life is purposeless manifest a mindlessness that is disposed to create trouble for himself and others. His murder of the wicked b_atch, her sister, his frantic efforts to hide and disguise it all, the fainting and mad ravings that he went into while in a catatonic state all show how limited his faculties were.

    But my question is, where did his nihilism come from?

    Lyceums, guilds, law school, taverns, reading societies? Chernychevkii? Decembrists? Jewish anarchists?

    I could look ahead in the book to see for myself but will read along and see if I can ferret out this matter eventually.
    When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent

    ~ Isaac Asimov

  11. #86
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    I think too much speculation as to how the death of his betrothed affected him. raskol brings it up, almost in passing, seemingly with the intent to gain sympathy for his argument with the police. other than that, the author doesn't give us anything to go by. it almost reads to me as if the relationship were one of convenience, expedience, or even self-serving. kinda like George Costanza dating the unemployment clerk's daughter on Seinfeld.

    in terms of nihilism---if we're going to claim Raskolnikov was himself nihilistic, as opposed to presuming it because the movement was afoot in Russia at that time, there should be lots of evidence presented. I think the things you said poppin have potential, and might be precursors but aren't necessarily evidence, and they should be inextricably linked with direct passages from the book that illustrate them.

    I don't know what he is, other than an aimless and somewhat adrift wretched character.

  12. #87
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    It is clear that he harbors such aberrant thoughts but, again, the question is what is/are the source(s) for these inane ideals. The only thought I have on this (again, remembering that I read the book 50+ years ago) is the old story of to be continued. We shall see as we go along in the book ...
    When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent

    ~ Isaac Asimov

  13. #88
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    Pyotr Petrovich Luzhin

    Interesting character to say the least.

    Every woman's nightmare - Dounia's temporary suitor, happiest when women are suffering at his hand and feeling that men are their benefactors. She sought him but only to be relieved of poverty.

    When Rascal is incapacitated by illness, he is surrounded by his pals. Luzhin walks in. He is superbly well dressed unlike those in the fold and says that he expects to meet Pulcheria & Dounia. There seems to be something Old World about him and mentions how "all the novelties , reforms, ideas have reached us in the provinces, but to see it all clearly one must be in Petersburg ... New valuable ideas are emerging ... We are cutting ourselves off from our past." But he feels those reforms are useless as everything good is based on self interest [clearly this is anti-nihilist which asserts that there is no social or utilitarian value in the world]. He condemns crime which is erupting everywhere as everyone wants to get rich. He, too, is a materialist but is not shown to be willing to kill or to undermine society in order to achieve his goals or advancement.

    But Luzhin does genuinely appear to wish Rascal well so that he can fully recover from his illness. Rascal clearly hates his guts and says that he wants to exploit his sister (I'd say it does appear that way). He order Luzhin to leave after insulting him. He remains determined to break up that marriage and doesn't appear to care that this can only lead to Dounia's financial ruin.



    ✱✱✱✱✱


    I like the way the conversation among the fold changed thereafter. Razumikhin was a thoughtful and insightful man who came up with a highly intelligent idea: that whoever the culprit was that croaked the old b_atch was an inexperienced hoodlum. That his escape was only by chance, not by design. Then he notes how Rascal gets all excited whenever the conversation turns to the crime. Earlier in the chat he dismisses all thought of Dushkin and Nikolay as the culprits (this despite Nikolay's suicide attempt) and gives rationales for why they could not have the causes of it. Though he is just as poor as Rascal, he is so much more rational, so much more positive, has a good sense of morality (no doubt representing old order Russian thought & ideals), very motivated to stand up for others (after all, they had been law students), and so much more inclined to see the good in people and in life circumstances. A friend in need, a friend in deed.
    Last edited by hellsapoppin; 02-05-2024 at 04:54 PM.
    When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent

    ~ Isaac Asimov

  14. #89
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    I’m learning all kinds of good stuff. For instance, poor people in Dostoevsky’s time would put a sugar cube between their teeth and suck tea through it. This was because sugar was expensive and by drinking tea this way rather than plopping a whole cube into their cup, they could stretch it out.

    Also, talk about the opiate of the masses, they drank a lot! (I guess I knew that already)

    What do you-all make of Raskol not being able to hang on to one thin dime? He throws money into the canal. He gives money to a busker who is singing a song he likes. He gives A LOT of money to Marmaduke’s wife, and it is money his mother had given him and didn’t really have to give.

    As for Pyotr, typical lawyer, eh? He’s got enough money to go to the beauty parlor and have his hair curled, but his future fiancé and mother-in-law have to ride to the train station in a hay cart, and then once in St Petersburg, he puts them up in a dive. What a chump!
    Uhhhh...

  15. #90
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    im only on chapter 4 so im behind where you guys are.

    the last chapter left me in a sort of personnel tizzy and I felt like I needed a scorecard to keep track of all the people. now who is that person? and who is this person?

    im not sure Sancho---in the book I just finished, the house of sand and fog, the Persians did the same thing with the sugar cube and tea. they had been well off in iran and so im wondering if that's just a different cultural way of drinking it.

    to your question about raskol and his finances---it hits home especially with me because I own rental property, so ive been noticing his ruble handling. without dismissing the role that structure plays in poverty, there is still a lot of truth in the saying that people are poor because they make poor choices.

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