GEN 25 - 28 "JACOB AND ESAU" 2 boys, 2 nations

[HCabret]

The individual concerned. Can any court tell a man what his beliefs are?

I'd say that the Israeli government is the only major authority for Judaism in the world. Saying that Israel can't define who is and isn't a Jew is like saying that the Roman Catholic Church can't determine who is and isn't catholic.

No, but he has the right to suggest it, and Jews have the right to say "No Thank you", and everybody can get on with their lives.

I fully understand. He has the right to be as anti-semitic as he pleases. I have the right to call him out for his anti-semitism.


This community should be built on mutual respect for one another, not on the denegration of other people's beliefs. Antisemitism should not be tolerated anymore than racism, misogyny, hompphobia or any other bigotry by this forum. Judaism has been around for at least 3200 years and there is no reason why this number should not continue to rise.

[prendrelemick]

I agree, I think intolerance wrong too. I would never denegrate Jacob's beliefs or his willingness to share them with others. Even if I don't agree with him.


I struggle to see how his original post is anti semitic at all. Have I missed something?

[prendrelemick]

Why must he attempt to convert any Jew to christianity? Have Jews not suffered enough under the hands of christians?

It's not that he "must" it is that he chooses to, and that is important. He lives in a religiously tolerent and free society. Unlike say...Nazi Germany.

[HCabret]

I agree, I think intolerance wrong too. I would never denegrate Jacob's beliefs or his willingness to share them with others. Even if I don't agree with him.


I struggle to see how his original post is anti semitic at all. Have I missed something?

He is promoting Messianism. Which is a belief system whose goal is to convert all Jews to Christianity. Messianism is widely seen as being anti-semitic among the Jewish community. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2...i-semitic.html

[HCabret]

It's not that he "must" it is that he chooses to, and that is important. He lives in a religiously tolerent and free society. Unlike say...Nazi Germany.

He is not being tolerant of Judaism or Jewish people's culture at all. He has continually made these posts in an attempt offend Jewish people. He has repeatedly used the tetragrammaton with zero regard and has repeatedly assigned false characteristics to Judaism and Jewish people's beliefs.

Why must I be tolerant of him, while he is allowed to be as intolerant towards Jews as he pleases?

[Eiseabhal]

Speaking as a Druid I have not noticed any "force" being used by the analyst calling himself Jacob. I would prefer you said Hun when looking for folks to blame. Although my father survived the last war by the skin of his teeth he was not healthy as a result of the oil he'd had to swim in and my mother's life was hard. She did what she could. She had lost two older brothers in 1940 when the Frogs were deserting the battlefield. You feel aggrieved? Don't get me started. I now worship the sun and moon but I still find Jacob interesting and he can try to convert me if he wants. I doubt that he'll succeed.

[HCabret]

Speaking as a Druid I have not noticed any "force" being used by the analyst calling himself Jacob. I would prefer you said Hun when looking for folks to blame. Although my father survived the last war by the skin of his teeth he was not healthy as a result of the oil he'd had to swim in and my mother's life was hard. She did what she could. She had lost two older brothers in 1940 when the Frogs were deserting the battlefield. You feel aggrieved? Don't get me started. I now worship the sun and moon but I still find Jacob interesting and he can try to convert me if he wants. I doubt that he'll succeed.

It is against the rules if this forum to advertise. This is not the appropriate forum for religious prostlyiezation, this is a literature forum.

[prendrelemick]

He has stated the tenets of his faith ( Messianism, so you tell me) and referred to the literature - the Bible. This is the religious thread. I still can't see the problem. Why don't you present some counter arguments? It would be interesting.

[HCabret]

He has stated the tenets of his faith ( Messianism, so you tell me) and referred to the literature - the Bible. This is the religious thread. I still can't see the problem. Why don't you present some counter arguments? It would be interesting.

He is conflating christianity and judaism together. Messianism is not syncretic as it takes nothing from judaism which mainstream christianity had not already taken. Messianism is exactly the same as evangelical christianity. Messianism is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

My evidence is that the Israeli Supreme Court explicitly ruled that Messianics are not Jewish. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/wo...-citizens.html

The Jewish community widely believes Messianism to be anti-semitic. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2...i-semitic.html

[Eiseabhal]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing

[HCabret]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing

That's not what I wrote. Did you even read my post?

[HCabret]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing

The stated goal of messianics is to convert jews to christianity.
Messianics want to trick Jews to worship jesus.

The evangelical group "Jews for Jesus"'s number one stated "core value" is "Direct Jewish evangelism as our priority". http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about-je...are/corevalues

These people are openly trying to convert Jewish people to evangelical christianity.
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/j...j_complete.pdf
http://jewsforjudaism.org/web/mainpa...challenge.html

Beliefnet states: "If you believe Jesus is the messiah, died for anyone else’s sins, is God’s chosen son, or any other dogma of Christian belief, you are not Jewish. You are Christian. Period."
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/...hats-what.html

The Jewish Community Relations Council of New York stated "On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: 'Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.'"
Source: Frequently Asked Questions About Hebrew-Christian Missionaries & "Jews for Jesus". Jewish Community Relations Council of New York. Spiritual Deception Prevention Project.

In 2006, actor Jackie Mason sued "Jews For Jesus" after they used his likeness in one of their brochures trying to pass him off as a messianic. Mason later stated that "[t]here's no such thing as a Jew for Jesus. It's like saying a black man is for the KKK. You can't be a table and a chair. You're either a Jew or a Gentile." http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/tags/religion/ http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/...05-mason_x.htm

In 2014, "Jews for Jesus" published a YouTube video which depicted a long-haired Jesus dragging a large wooden cross appears in the film until an Auschwitz extermination camp guard sends him to the gas chambers and says "just another Jew" in German. The video was so bad that Fox News refused to show an advertisement for the video on their air.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...-news/1.586953
http://forward.com/opinion/196708/wh...-at-auschwitz/

[Eiseabhal]

Anyway I'm sure many Jews can think for themselves and the Js for J are probably spectacularly unsuccessful. Here's a tale. In the tip of the Americas once lived various tribes. Pagans like myself: Yaghans Selknam etc. None of these now exist. Shot off like ... pagans. One of the principal shooters was a Mr. Popper. I'm sure he would pass the test of the "authorities" to determine which big religious group he belonged to. I mean you no ill (Me being a pagan sun worshipper and all - How could I) but people have the right to change their minds about any set of beliefs. Why would anyone have a phobia of the proselyte?

[ennison]

Well Eiseabhal I'm sure it would take a lot to convert you to anything! Druid! Beolach do sheann sheanamhathair orrasan!
Have you ever been to Callanis? Next time you're up we'll go and imbibe the astronomical sacrificial air. Leave Monsieur Cabaret alone why don't you?
Kurd? Maybe there is a meaning there that goes straight over my heid.

[HCabret]

Anyway I'm sure many Jews can think for themselves and the Js for J are probably spectacularly unsuccessful. Here's a tale. In the tip of the Americas once lived various tribes. Pagans like myself: Yaghans Selknam etc. None of these now exist. Shot off like ... pagans. One of the principal shooters was a Mr. Popper. I'm sure he would pass the test of the "authorities" to determine which big religious group he belonged to. I mean you no ill (Me being a pagan sun worshipper and all - How could I) but people have the right to change their minds about any set of beliefs. Why would anyone have a phobia of the proselyte?

I don't like anti-semitism or any other flavor of bigotry. Messianics are actively seeking to rid the world of Jews by making everyone into christians.

Jacob is NOT a Jew in any way, shape, or form. The only way for him to become a Jew would be to convert to Judaism. You can't be a Christian and a Jew at the same time.