Vengeance

[Lokasenna]

I’ve been thinking about revenge recently – not in an active sense, I hasten to add, but in an abstract one! This is purely hypothetical.

Perhaps it’s because my usual literary stomping ground, the Old Norse sagas, are so invested in the concept of blood-feud, but I find myself increasingly convinced that taking vengeance for wrongs against oneself is not only a viable thing to do, but actually a moral prerogative. Not only should one take vengeance, but I think it is also a necessary social duty to take it.

Of course, it’s not just early medieval literature that focuses on vengeance – it motivates so much of our finest narratives. Where would we be without our Renaissance revenge-tragedies? Or some of our racier 19th century mystery novels?

Many of these narratives involve vengeance becoming an active force when the processes of the law fail, and the same can be just as true of real life. Sometimes, the law just can’t help you.

I’m interested to know what other people think. Is vengeance justifiable? And what forms of vengeance? Perhaps some of you have had cause to take vengeance, and would like to talk about it?

[North Star]

In larger matters, vengeance needs to be outsourced to a societal institution, and be subservient to the good of the society. If someone doesn't pay their taxes and hides their money on a Swiss bank account, it's better to get the money than to have the person put in prison and not have the money.

But I definitely support getting reasonable vengeance in a way that will not result in you getting prosecuted.

[Bartlebooth]

I can see why someone would be motivated to seek revenge, but I firmly believe in the idea that "two rights don't make a wrong." If any punitive measures are taken, they should only be carried out to the extent that they promote the greater good. Even if someone deserves further punishment, I think that forgiveness is more valuable than vengeance. Even if punishment is dealt out, it should probably be facilitated by an impartial party. That's why we have judges deliver sentences instead of victims or their families. All that said, I have never really been wronged by anyone, so my beliefs might be different than they would be if I had been wronged.

[Pike Bishop]

In larger matters, vengeance needs to be outsourced to a societal institution, and be subservient to the good of the society. If someone doesn't pay their taxes and hides their money on a Swiss bank account, it's better to get the money than to have the person put in prison and not have the money.

But I definitely support getting reasonable vengeance in a way that will not result in you getting prosecuted.

I agree with Northstar on both counts. Vengeance is a legitimate human activity and one of the top 5 in terms of satisfaction levels outside of sex. Of course, I'm half-Sicilian/half-Jewish; so, it's in my blood. I do think, however, that gross tax evaders deserve prison sentences as much as embezzlers or those engaged in non-violent burglary or petty theft. Like them, gross tax evaders have stolen money; they have just stolen it from the other members of their nation.

Anyway, my ten favorite revenge films are:

1. The Godfather Part II
2. Memento
3. Carrie
4. Mad Max
5. The Virgin Spring
6. The Crow
7. The Outlaw Josie Wales
9. Kill Bill 1-2
10. In the Bedroom

[Pike Bishop]

Not to be outdone by their celluloid cousins, Ten Outstanding Revenge Novels/Plays:

1. Hamlet
2. Macbeth
3. Paradise Lost
4. Moby Dick
5. The Golden Bowl
6. The Oresteia
7. Great Expectations
8. Victory by Joseph Conrad
9. Galveston by Nic Pizzolato
10. Titus Andronicus (so-so)

[bounty]

I hesitate to join in for reasons that might soon become abundantly clear but...for the purpose of conversation would it be helpful to further differentiate between justice and vengeance? I think I see some mingling going on...

[Pike Bishop]

And finally, ten great revenge songs:

1. You're So Vain--Carly Simon
2. Heart-Shaped Box--Nirvana
3. A Boy Named Sue--Johnny Cash
4. One Way or Another--Blondie
5. In the Air Tonight--Phil Collins
6. Under My Thumb--The Rolling Stones
7. The Thunder Rolls--Garth Brooks
8. Cry Me a River--Justin Timberlake
9. Kerosene--Miranda Lambert
10. Since You've Been Gone--Kelly Clarkson

[Iain Sparrow]

I hesitate to join in for reasons that might soon become abundantly clear but...for the purpose of conversation would it be helpful to further differentiate between justice and vengeance? I think I see some mingling going on...

This is exactly true.
Vengeance is often exacted from a purely emotional state and can be disproportionate to the original wrong, while Justice is rational and usually institutionalized, that is society agrees upon the route justice must take. In civilized society we don't allow an individual to take the law into their own hand.

I’m interested to know what other people think. Is vengeance justifiable? And what forms of vengeance? Perhaps some of you have had cause to take vengeance, and would like to talk about it?

About fifteen years ago I was accused of a crime I did not commit, the kind of crime if you're convicted of you get sent away for most of the rest of your life. I recall commenting to my attorney one afternoon during a deposition, and one day from a scheduled polygraph, that if this were one hundred years ago I would simply search out my accusers... and kill them.

As it was, neither justice or vengeance prevailed. I passed the polygraph, hired a private investigator to find out all he could about my accusers, and that information was passed on to the authorities... who then focused on those who wrongfully accused me. Did that quench my bloodlust?.. not by a long shot. Even to this day I keep track of my accusers, know where they live and work, know email addresses, phone numbers and online habits. If they do to someone else what they tried to do to me, I will let the hammer fall.

[Pike Bishop]

This is exactly true.
Vengeance is often exacted from a purely emotional state and can be disproportionate to the original wrong, while Justice is rational and usually institutionalized, that is society agrees upon the route justice must take. In civilized society we don't allow an individual to take the law into their own hand.

It's not that Manichean. Throughout human history, many--if not most--people, tribes, and cultures could not and/or did not receive justice from a governing third power. The only justice they could attain from a wrong was through personally or tribally inflicted vengeance. And while that vengeance could be "exacted from a purely emotional state," it very often wasn't. The definition of vengeance, by the way, is: "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense." So, being exacted from a purely emotional state is not an inherent element of vengeance.

This applies to personal vengeance, where a governing third party is also usually not involved nor can be. For example, if our spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend cheats on us, emotional states will factor, but the act of vengeance to leave/break up with them can also be a rational one, as the aggrieved can no longer trust the cheater. You, yourself obviously still believe in such personal vengeance, as you are still invested in punishing retaliation for those who bore witness against you.

[Lokasenna]

There are some really interesting perspectives here, and I'm a little bit surprised, in a good way, that there hasn't been an immediate rush to condemn the concept of vengeance - guess it means I'm not all that warped!

I think the discussion about making a distinction between vengeance and justice is a curious one: I think that Iain and Pike's definitions of these terms are sensible - though the tiny little anarchist deep in my soul wonders whether justice can ever really be institutionalised. What gives the state the right to decide what is just (i.e. state-mandated vengeance) and what is persecution (i.e. state-opposed vengeance)?

On some level, the measure of vengeance must be against one's own private and personal sense of morality - the code to which you hold yourself and the rest of the world. If that code is transgressed by somebody to the extent that one feels vengeance is necessary, then it is an entirely personal and subjective action. I do not think, and have never thought, that the state can be a moral entity - even if it does occasionally do moral things. I suppose also that someone of strong religious conviction might have differing views on vengeance, as Romans 12:19 has it: 'Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.'

I wonder if, therefore, a willingness to take vengeance is, on some level, a refusal to defer moral authority? Instead of leaving matters to a higher power, the state or the deity, it is a matter of seeing some wrongdoing and feeling obliged to punish it?

[YesNo]

Vengeance takes too much time and energy. One may need to defend oneself or others. That is a separate question, but going out of one's way to punish someone else for some past offense does not seem worth the effort.

I saw the recent Furious 7 movie. The bad guy was inspired by vengeance. He got his butt kicked by those defending themselves.

[Dreamwoven]

I agree with YesNo. The best response to some offence may often be to let it go.

[bounty]

lokasenna, I appreciate your mentioning romans. I was going to do likewise.

I have competing thoughts, which i think bespeaks to the fallen nature of man, and the call to the redeemed man.

when i read or watch movies (and i suspect i am not alone in this) and the bad guy is getting his comeuppance, its often not satisfying unless he takes a good licking in the process. its not enough that he is caught, and about to be put in jail too, the reader/viewer wants some retribution and suffering to go on. we want to see it taken out of his hide. i contend that's one reason why a particular play in American football is so satisfying. when a wide receiver comes over the middle to catch a pass, he is in essence invading the defensive backs territory. consider it like a home invasion. the db doesn't have to limit his response to that---he can almost quite literally have the receivers head on a platter, and when he does, we all go "ohhhhhhh" and cringe, but we love it at the same time. some folks would say the catharsis is good for us.

ive been in a few situations, on the receiving end of abuse, where the abusers are able to get away with it because they know a recourse to the "law" in those instances would prove ineffectual, and civil law precludes vengeance from occurring. i sometimes believe "polite" society (and internet forums) would be more polite if people were acutely aware that a vengeful reaction might occur to in response to their abusive behavior. i think its one reason why i like zane grey and lee child novels.

but on to the redeemed part---i think the desire for vengeance is part desire for justice, and part desire to hurt. the former part is admirable, the latter is a part of our sin nature, and as you pointed out, should at least be subservient to moral authority, if not outright cleansed from our spirits this side of heaven. there's a great story about corrie ten boom, who was in a concentration camp during WWII and who saw her beloved sister die there, meeting one of the former prison guards who asked (in an implied way) her forgiveness. she didn't know how she was going to do it, but she said she knew what god commanded and in obedience, she put forth her hand to meet his extended one, and when their hands clasped, she felts gods forgiveness flowing through her.

i still have this good angel/bad angel thing going on where id be likely to say, yeah im still going to kick your hind end...and then afterwards feel bad about and i'll ask for forgiveness.

in the meantime, i suspect i'll continue to enjoy literature and cinema where some sort of personal justice occurs and enjoy William Wallace and Beatrix kiddo going about their business.

[Pike Bishop]

Vengeance takes too much time and energy. One may need to defend oneself or others. That is a separate question, but going out of one's way to punish someone else for some past offense does not seem worth the effort.

I saw the recent Furious 7 movie. The bad guy was inspired by vengeance. He got his butt kicked by those defending themselves.

Not always. Breaking up with someone who cheated on you or deciding to no longer invite chronically sloppily drunken friends to one's parties can be done in almost no time with very little energy.

As to films, some vengeance films, like In the Bedroom, do show that vengeance can be hollow and distracting from the real issues needing to be addressed. Some, like Point Blank, show fulfilling vengeance with some qualms about that fulfillment. Others, however, like Mad Max and The Virgin Spring, show the unabashed visceral pleasure of vengeance for harm to one's loved ones that can even bring spiritual, and even literal physical, renewal.

i contend that's one reason why a particular play in American football is so satisfying. when a wide receiver comes over the middle to catch a pass, he is in essence invading the defensive backs territory. consider it like a home invasion. the db doesn't have to limit his response to that---he can almost quite literally have the receivers head on a platter, and when he does, we all go "ohhhhhhh" and cringe, but we love it at the same time. some folks would say the catharsis is good for us.

Those people and families who have actually suffered the terrors and horrors of home invasion would most likely take great exception to this analogy. There is no apt comparison between the violent invasion of one's home--which also often brings violent suffering--to a defensive back crossing into the defense's territory. Also, I'm not sure how much catharsis that comes from watching a wide receiver be violently hit...as opposed to relatives of murdered victims watching their killers sentenced. I once saw Renaldo Nehemiah almost paralyzed by such a hit...there was nothing cathartic about it.

[bounty]

now you all know why I was reluctant to join in...