Mini-novel, feedback please? (No title yet)

[qimissung]

Thank you, Calidore. You're a champ.

[SleepyWitch]

Well, yeah, "she" is the appropriate pronoun in the compound subject in the dependent clause beginning with "when." "Tobias and she" would be the subject of the clause. "Her" would be the objective form of the third person female pronoun, as in "Tobias took her to the Alps."

In the short list of books with academic settings, I forgot to mention "The Marriage Plot" by Jeffrey Eugenides. It's not about Brown University, but an emotionally vibrant story of three people as students there as well as their lives after graduation. That book, like yours, explores human relationships within that setting and beyond. I think you would enjoy that novel, SleepyWitch.

I loved "Middlesex". Might check this one out, sounds good. Thanks.

[SleepyWitch]

Elmore Leonard was a writer of crime/suspense fiction who was especially renowned for his dialogue and characterization. He is also well-known for his article "Ten Rules of Writing":

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/ar...ptedoodle.html

This article is cool. I'll have to check out his work at some point.
However, different readers like different styles and he says you shouldn't get inside a characters head, yet this is precisely what AuntShecky liked about my first story.
I suppose it all depends... E.g. the article says you should use regional dialects sparingly. I'm reading "Grapes of Wraths" at the moment and it's full of dialect. I can't get over how cool it is that the "Okies" say "her" instead of "it". I never knew they do that, so I find it really interesting and endearing.

[qimissung]

Thank you, SleepyWitch. I'm glad you find us Okies endearing. That book was written quite a number of years ago, however. Any linguistic tics you find in the novel have long since passed away.

And as to Leonard's writing suggestions, they are just that. Ultimately you'll have to figure out what works for you. Although I think you knew that already.

[SleepyWitch]

Thank you, SleepyWitch. I'm glad you find us Okies endearing. That book was written quite a number of years ago, however. Any linguistic tics you find in the novel have long since passed away.

And as to Leonard's writing suggestions, they are just that. Ultimately you'll have to figure out what works for you. Although I think you knew that already.

Yeah, I figgered her out.


I've just thought about how Leonard says you should never use any other word than "said" with dialogue. If I remember correctly, he argues that other verbs (or adverbs) convey the judgement of the narrator and interfere with the story. I suppose that's true. However, if you have a first person narrator who judges the other characters, I think it would be acceptable to use "exlaimed" etc.

[Iain Sparrow]

Yeah, I figgered her out.


I've just thought about how Leonard says you should never use any other word than "said" with dialogue. If I remember correctly, he argues that other verbs (or adverbs) convey the judgement of the narrator and interfere with the story. I suppose that's true. However, if you have a first person narrator who judges the other characters, I think it would be acceptable to use "exlaimed" etc.

The problem with only using "said" accompanying dialogue, besides it becoming annoying and noticeable to the reader, is that the writer loses an easy opportunity to convey emotion and movement, atmosphere, etc. It seems to me that any repetition or pattern of word use would jar the reader out of the story.

[SleepyWitch]

The problem with only using "said" accompanying dialogue, besides it becoming annoying and noticeable to the reader, is that the writer loses an easy opportunity to convey emotion and movement, atmosphere, etc. It seems to me that any repetition or pattern of word use would jar the reader out of the story.

Yes, I think if you only use "said" it could put some readers off because they have to figure the emotions out themselves. It might end up sounding too abrupt, especially if the characters are unusual and the reader can't be expected to infer all their feelings without hints.

[AuntShecky]

Yes, I think if you only use "said" it could put some readers off because they have to figure the emotions out themselves. It might end up sounding too abrupt, especially if the characters are unusual and the reader can't be expected to infer all their feelings without hints.

That's what an alert reader is supposed to do --"figure out emotions for himself." The reader can determine the character's feelings through the word choices used within the dialogue. Reading is a collaborative venture between the writer and the reader; that's why "showing" is usually better than telling.

[Iain Sparrow]

That's what an alert reader is supposed to do --"figure our emotions for himself." The reader can determine the character's feelings through the word choices used within the dialogue. Reading is a collaborative venture between the writer and the reader; that's why "showing" is usually better than telling.

But dialogue isn't just spoken, it's conveyed through body language, tone and tenor, etc... and it would seem that sometimes a reader needs to be made to feel a certain way?

I'm no writer, but I am an artist whose worked professionally as a muralist and a theatre set/prop designer, and while I always wanted my work to leave some elbow room for interpretation, I was usually more concerned with making the viewer/audience feel and respond in ways of my choosing.

As writers, don't you feel some sense of satisfaction when you shepherd a reader through a story and they respond to it in the way you had imagined? I know as an visual artist when that happens I feel like "yeah, I nailed it".

[AuntShecky]

But dialogue isn't just spoken, it's conveyed through body language, tone and tenor, etc... and it would seem that sometimes a reader needs to be made to feel a certain way?

That's why it's important to use well-chosen, highly specific words designed to convey tone. For instance, let's use one hypothetical line: "Nigel, you're completely wrong."

Now let's come up with some variations of the same line expressing tone:

A.
"I understand the point you're trying to make, Nigel, but, sorry to say, I believe you're mistaken."

B.
"Nigel, that's total crap."

As far as body language, the writer could accompany the line with a gesture.

A.
Holding my palms up, I said, "I understand the point you"re trying to make, Nigel, but sorry to say, I believe you are mistaken."

B.
I raised my fists and yelled, "Nigel, that's total crap."

One thing you shouldn't do is resort to adverbs, similiar to the kind we used to call "Tom Swifties":

"I understand the point you"re trying to make, Nigel, but sorry to say, I believe you are mistaken," I said gently.

"Nigel, that's total crap," I said angrily.

[SleepyWitch]

That's why it's important to use well-chosen, highly specific words designed to convey tone. For instance, let's use one hypothetical line: "Nigel, you're completely wrong."

Now let's come up with some variations of the same line expressing tone:

A.
"I understand the point you're trying to make, Nigel, but, sorry to say, I believe you're mistaken."

B.
"Nigel, that's total crap."

As far as body language, the writer could accompany the line with a gesture.

A.
Holding my palms up, I said, "I understand the point you"re trying to make, Nigel, but sorry to say, I believe you are mistaken."

B.
I raised my fists and yelled, "Nigel, that's total crap."

One thing you shouldn't do is resort to adverbs, similiar to the kind we used to call "Tom Swifties":

"I understand the point you"re trying to make, Nigel, but sorry to say, I believe you are mistaken," I said gently.

"Nigel, that's total crap," I said angrily.

Not everybody chooses their words that carefully in real life, though. I'm sure you do (your affinity to my first character makes me think so). I know a person in real life who calls everything that's negative "detestable" or "appaling", ranging from everyday misfortunes to the death of a child (not her child).