does religion/God give people a voice?

[Melanie]

An unchanging religious text is NOT a good thing. The FACT that the bible doesn't change is one of the major problems with all ancient religious texts. The Bible doesn't change because truth is truth. Truth doesn't change. The Bible is complete according to God.

The slavery thing again yes, again is right...we JUST went over this very subject a few posts back, for example. If god has somehow changed his position and now abhors slavery, where's the new and improved Bible 2.0? If he no longer wants us to comply with the most horrible of the 613 biblical laws, why hasn't he let us know?

God DOES hate slavery...and God did let us know:
Which form of slavery are you discussing? God, in no way, condoned the form of slavery we know of in recent times:

1. Slavery in the Old Testament times was very different from slavery in more recent times worldwide. In Old Testament times it was not based just on race, nationality, or color, but rather social status. Man sold themselves as slaves when they couldn't take care of their families and owed debt. Even politicians, lawyers, and doctors were slaves. Some chose to be slaves so they would be taken care of by their masters.

2. The Bible is definitely against slavery. The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for being Hebrew (Exodus 13:4) so God brought plagues to Egypt to demonstrate how God feels about slavery (Exodus 7-11)

3. The kind of slaves we think of that were kidnapped from Africa and sold (slave-trading) was appalling to God who said, “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). In 1Timothy 1:8-10 it says, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers.

4. "A crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery." Hard Sayings of the Bible by Kaiser, Davids, & Brauch and Logos Bible Software.

Basically, you either follow your ancient text to the letter or you don't follow it at all but as has been shown time and time again, you adjust it to suit your modern living and new humane moral standards and then swear - well, on the bible that you're a Christian doing God's will when you plainly are not. I swear?? Are you talking about when I said "sure as hell beats the alternative? That wasn't swearing because I was actually referring to hell vs eternity. Plus, God only said we can't take His name in vain. When "swearing" is a nono in the Bible, it's referring to taking an "oath". He doesn't want us to make piecrust promises, easily made and easily broken.

(blue highlighted text is mine)

[cafolini]

Excellent post, Melanie.

[SentimentalSlop]

You're wrong but I will say sentimental slop suits you very well :-)

I would much rather go through my life looking for collective solutions to problems in this society - because when it comes to the negative, we have to be accountable. When a child is tortured, it isn't good enough to spout out: God needed another Angel. What kind of God allows such horrors on earth and I don't want to hear your piss weak justifications. Human beings own what they do and they are just as responsible for coming up with the solutions. Religion is a get out of jail free card for those who want to separate themselves from taking ownership. What a 'nice' idea that there is a 'parent' in the sky to look over you so you don't have to be a gwown up, be 100% accountable and (shock horror) diverse to alternative ideas and concepts. Sure, you don't mind taking credit for all the joy and love but when it comes to doing anything about hardship and horror, well it's all in Big Daddy's hands and he has a plan which it isn't for us to question.

I would say grow up but of course you're welcome to your belief so long as you don't actually harm anyone emotionally, mentally or physically because of it and I think I'm justified in making such statements. You're right that people from all walks kill but there is no documented slaughter on record from atheist fervor. Plenty of religious ones though and you're religious - so how on earth can you be trusted?

1) My username is taken from the book The Brothers Karamazov. A young boy named Kolya called such beliefs that I have sentimental slop. I just found the phrase funny, and liked the character.

2) Christ (according to the story) was the most innocent and perfect being to have ever been placed on this earth, and he suffered a horrible and gruesome death. Life is suffering, my friend. It is necessary.

3) Once again, Christians are held accountable EXTREMELY. We believe that we are going to be judged by God some day. Catholics especially emphasize sin and going to confession. We are not even allowed to sin in our thoughts. You should look up some time what Catholics are obligated to do and are forbidden to do. It'd make your head spin. Plus Catholics believe salvation is through faith AND works. That is even more pressure than other Christian denominations have. And I don't know where you think religion is some get out of jail card. I would say that it is the exact opposite. It puts even more responsibility on you. God had set up very high standards for us because he has faith in us. He wants us to be perfect like him.

4) I used to be very skeptical of organized religion, very liberal morally and politically, etc. I was open to "diverse" and "progressive" ideas. I've been down that road for most of my life, and I can safely say that I'm never going back to it.

5) Um, has communism in Germany, Eastern Europe, China, and Cuba meant nothing to you? That's what you get when you try to take religion away from the people. Or, you know, look at North Korea.

6) I'm not allowed to hurt anyone emotionally or physically. I can be and ought to be trusted. I swear by my very life.

[SentimentalSlop]

SentimentalSlop is absolutely correct regarding Christian matters.


Could you please clarify and back this up with something. Fails in what way? Evolve in what way? Are you talking about a specific church? The Bible evolved from Old Testament to New Testament but once it was finished, nothing needed to be added or subtracted. It's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It never gets old. That's why it's been the #1 Bestseller every year, year after year. Timeless. Amazing isn't it. No other book can claim that.

And that's with it being the most banned book in the world.

[mal4mac]

SentimentalSlop is absolutely correct regarding Christian matters.

Has she been made Pope? Given all the different sects of Christianity how can one Christian be absolutely correct on Christian matters? I just read an interesting Wikipedia page in which it turns out that 2/3 of Roman Catholics are not really Roman Catholics because the deny the infallibility of the Pope!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_i...l_by_Catholics

[Delta40]

What has communism got to do with atheism? Hello I don't believe in god - didn't realise you would assume so much about people and societal structures because of that one point. Amazing isn't it. We are both presumptious.

[mal4mac]

Nothing wrong with being presumptuous in a forum, as you can be corrected in the next post. But anti-atheists just cannot seem to see that atheism isn't communism, and continue to presume that if you are atheist you are some kind of Stalinist. This "communism isn't atheism" point has been made so many times, and the anti-atheists just don't seem to get it! They equate communism with atheism and pretend they are attacking atheism when they are really attacking communism. It's pure sophistry, intellectual deceit of the most brazen kind.

By the way, Dawkins just made the point on twitter that Hitler was a Roman catholic. If you were baptised as Roman catholic in Germany/Austria then you were a Roman catholic forever, according to the Roman catholic church. Stalin spent his adolescence in training to be a priest. The heavy religious influence on these two totalitarians must have had some kind of formative influence!

P.S. Dawkins is on a book tour to sell the first volume of his autobiography at the moment and is obviously finding a lot of time to twitter, and is really on form. This is a great chance for anyone in the States to see him, hear him on local radio, or even have dinner with him! "Only 4 tickets left (of 20) for Michael Shermer's dinner for RDFRS. http://conta.cc/16lxqKv 3rd dinner selling out as fast as the other 2." Also, unlike with the recent Pope's tour of the UK, his tour is not paid for out of your taxes.

[SentimentalSlop]

Has she been made Pope? Given all the different sects of Christianity how can one Christian be absolutely correct on Christian matters? I just read an interesting Wikipedia page in which it turns out that 2/3 of Roman Catholics are not really Roman Catholics because the deny the infallibility of the Pope!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_i...l_by_Catholics

Yes, most Catholics do not believe in certain doctrines. That's not good. But the stuff I tell you is basic Christian beliefs. It's nothing surprising.

And I'm not saying atheism is communism. You guys have got to actually READ what I say instead of twisting it into whatever you want. What I said is that the most cruel, barbaric communist efforts have been dictated by radical atheistic movements. I completely acknowledge the fact that there have been communist Christians, although the combination seems more than ironic to me.

So what if Hitler was baptized a RC? The depraved man obviously did not follow Catholic doctrine or Christianity at all. His beliefs and efforts were the exact opposite of Christianity. He hated Catholicism especially and oppressed it and sought to get rid of it. I've met many people who said they were Christian just because they were baptized, but they weren't Christians at all. My sister was baptized a RC, but she is not a RC. She rejects Christianity and is a self-proclaimed atheist.

[Volya]

Just to throw in my own personal questions about the Bible and Christianity...

In Leviticus, it says homosexuals should be killed. So why aren't Christians going around and killing them all? Oh yes, because it says in some other part of the Bible that the Old Testament rules don't count... But then again, why are many Christians still homophobic? And weren't the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament? Shouldn't we ignore them too?

And besides. Even if we aren't meant to follow those silly old laws anymore, why were they ever laws to begin with? Why, at any point throughout history, did God condone the execution of gays? He might've changed his mind at some point I guess (although I thought he was meant to be omniscient so he probably should've seen it coming...), but I personally wouldn't want to follow a religion that EVER said that it was okay to go around killing people because of who they love.

[SentimentalSlop]

Read Hebrews chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10. It explains why the OT laws are no longer in use and what the purpose of them was.

Christians are against gay marriage and sex because we believe that marriage is about procreation (not just that obviously, but that is the common denominator), and men and men or women and women simply do not have the means to reproduce. And in order for one to have sex, they ought to be married. That is why both are forbidden. It is not that we should be against homosexuals and not love them as human beings, but we encourage chastity among them. There are many gay Christians out there who live chaste lives and encourage chastity.

There are other verses in the NT that says that practicing homosexuality is wrong. Romans 1:26-27, Corinthians 6:9-10, Corinthians 7:1-2 (it's implied what marriage is and what it is not), Ephesians 5:25-33 (same difference), Colossians 4:18-19 (same difference), 1 Timothy 1:6-11. There might be more, I'm not sure. But marriage in the Bible is never talked about being between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Homosexual relationships are always condemned.

And here is why we still follow the commandments: Matthew 19:16-22.

[Volya]

But why was it ever okay to go around killing gays. That is never justifiable.

(I read the Hebrews chapters, didn't really help).

Why is sex not allowed outside of marriage? Cannot gay married couples adopt? What about if a man or a woman was infertile, should they never be allowed to marry?

And that passage from Matthew doesn't refer to all the Commandments.

[Eman Resu]

Christians are against gay marriage and sex because we believe that marriage is about procreation

Why do so many people make such wild statements without ever doing any research? Very few Christian denominations oppose same-gender relationships. Even Wikipedia - dumbest of the dumb - will give you some insight into the situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homosexuality

[Eman Resu]

And that passage from Matthew doesn't refer to all the Commandments.

No passage in the New Testament does; the Decalogue appears in its entirety only in the Old Testament - in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5.

[cacian]

Read Hebrews chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10. It explains why the OT laws are no longer in use and what the purpose of them was.

Christians are against gay marriage and sex because we believe that marriage is about procreation (not just that obviously, but that is the common denominator), and men and men or women and women simply do not have the means to reproduce. And in order for one to have sex, they ought to be married. That is why both are forbidden. It is not that we should be against homosexuals and not love them as human beings, but we encourage chastity among them. There are many gay Christians out there who live chaste lives and encourage chastity.

There are other verses in the NT that says that practicing homosexuality is wrong. Romans 1:26-27, Corinthians 6:9-10, Corinthians 7:1-2 (it's implied what marriage is and what it is not), Ephesians 5:25-33 (same difference), Colossians 4:18-19 (same difference), 1 Timothy 1:6-11. There might be more, I'm not sure. But marriage in the Bible is never talked about being between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Homosexual relationships are always condemned.

And here is why we still follow the commandments: Matthew 19:16-22.

chastity is the worst form of reprimand you could inflict on someone it is terrible. no one should be told or encouraged to practice chastity because of their sexuality. it is twisted and wrong.

[cacian]

Just to throw in my own personal questions about the Bible and Christianity...

In Leviticus, it says homosexuals should be killed. So why aren't Christians going around and killing them all? Oh yes, because it says in some other part of the Bible that the Old Testament rules don't count... But then again, why are many Christians still homophobic? And weren't the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament? Shouldn't we ignore them too?

And besides. Even if we aren't meant to follow those silly old laws anymore, why were they ever laws to begin with? Why, at any point throughout history, did God condone the execution of gays? He might've changed his mind at some point I guess (although I thought he was meant to be omniscient so he probably should've seen it coming...), but I personally wouldn't want to follow a religion that EVER said that it was okay to go around killing people because of who they love.

you know what Volya I am tempted to say god is gay himself. how do we know he is not? he is man isn't he right? well then it is a 50/50 chance that he maybe.
I do not believe for a moment god would condemn homosexuality. I believe it to be man made by those who set out to create/invent the bible.