does religion/God give people a voice?

[The Atheist]

I guess it all depends on what people view as discrimination against women...

That's pretty easy to answer: discrimination is not allowing one type of person the same opportunities as another type. It can be based on race, weight, or in this case, gender. If a woman is not entitled to the same treatment as a man, then it's clearly discrimination.

I guess I would be considered discriminatory against my own gender lol.

Yeah, it's funny the way that works, isn't it?

Almost all cases I know of where people discriminate against their own gender, it's based on religious reasons: women who are in favour of the burqa, women who are in favour of the Roman Catholic Church discriminating against women, women who believe a woman's place is barefoot & pregnant in the kitchen...

I liken it to a type of Stockholm Syndrome. Or, as Muhammad Ali put it; the best thing of all is getting the slave to cheer for slavery.

[SentimentalSlop]

How is the Catholic Church discriminatory against women, may I ask?

[The Atheist]

I am astonished at the question, but I'll presume it's genuine.

Women are banned from the priesthood, and all positions of power within the church. The discrimination is so open that enlightened countries - those with anti-discriminatory legislation - have special clauses in their laws exempting churches from prosecution.

[Eman Resu]

I am astonished at the question, but I'll presume it's genuine.

Women are banned from the priesthood, and all positions of power within the church. The discrimination is so open that enlightened countries - those with anti-discriminatory legislation - have special clauses in their laws exempting churches from prosecution.

Let's not forget the Catholic stance on abortion - even when the Mother's Life might be jeopardised, or when the pregnancy is the result of rape - which might be seen as being slightly misogynistic.

[SentimentalSlop]

The question was genuine.

And that's not discriminatory. The Catholic Church simply does not have the authority to ordain women. The priest is acting in the persona of Christ, Christ was a man, and he chose only twelve males to be his apostles. And to those apostles, he gave the authority to ordain men as priests, forgive sins, cast out demons, etc. Christ gave this authority only to man, and man has handed down this authority to other men for 2000 years. The Church would ordain women if they found biblical evidence for it, but there is none.

Plus the Church believes men and women are different. Not unequal, but different. We were created differently and have different roles. Both are necessary and rely on one another.

[SentimentalSlop]

The Church is more understanding in situations of rape or the possibility of death for the mother, but it's still not "supportive." But yes, the Church is vehemently against abortion, but I still don't see how that is sexist, to be honest, especially how they want to help the women as much as possible and protect the life of those babies, half of which are girls.

And look at all the female saints the Church has. Even little girls have been venerated as saints. There are literally thousands of female saints. Not to mention that the most honored person after God is Mary in the Catholic Church.

[Eman Resu]

I still don't see how that is sexist

Depriving only women of the right to make a choice is, by its very definition, sexist.

"Discrimination based solely upon gender." Very few Catholic men ever get pregnant.

[SentimentalSlop]

I guess it all depends on how much worth you put on a child in the womb. Are they lesser or equal to the value of a woman? In Catholicism, they are equals. Well, just in Christianity, in general. If you're a Christian, it should make sense. If you're a nonbeliever, than there is no obligation to believe that that's the case. Plus many people don't believe it's a "choice."

[Eman Resu]

I guess it all depends on how much worth you put on a child in the womb. Are they lesser or equal to the value of a woman? In Catholicism, they are equals. Well, just in Christianity, in general. If you're a Christian, it should make sense. If you're a nonbeliever, than there is no obligation to believe that that's the case. Plus many people don't believe it's a "choice."

Good grief, do you believe that you're in a nursery school?

[SentimentalSlop]

What is that supposed to mean? Please elaborate.

[The Atheist]

Let's not forget the Catholic stance on abortion - even when the Mother's Life might be jeopardised, or when the pregnancy is the result of rape - which might be seen as being slightly misogynistic.

I never do, but I wanted to keep the discussion friendly!

[The Atheist]

The question was genuine.

And that's not discriminatory. The Catholic Church simply does not have the authority to ordain women. The priest is acting in the persona of Christ, Christ was a man, and he chose only twelve males to be his apostles. And to those apostles, he gave the authority to ordain men as priests, forgive sins, cast out demons, etc. Christ gave this authority only to man, and man has handed down this authority to other men for 2000 years. The Church would ordain women if they found biblical evidence for it, but there is none.

That is utter nonsense. As I recall, Jesus' mother was a woman. He was able to be born without a man, but not without a woman, and if I recall correctly, Jesus also said something about if thine enemy should smite thee in the left cheek, show him the right and let him smite that too.

Yet, I find 90% of armies made up of christians, and lots of them are Roman Catholics.

Religions cherry-pick the hell out of the bible, and you won't find many Catholics turning down lobster or pork, or refusing to shave on religious grounds, and even the Pope accepts evolution.

The only reason the RCC refuses to ordain women is because they're misogynists. If they can find a just reason for war, in spite of all of Jesus' teachings saying the exact opposite, I'm, 100% certain they could over the ordination if they wished to. A simple revelation in cathedra by Pope Frank will do the trick.

the Church believes men and women are different. Not unequal, but different. We were created differently and have different roles. Both are necessary and rely on one another.

I'm not going to argue the necessity, but you need to learn that differences do not affect equality.

[SentimentalSlop]

That is utter nonsense. As I recall, Jesus' mother was a woman. He was able to be born without a man, but not without a woman, and if I recall correctly, Jesus also said something about if thine enemy should smite thee in the left cheek, show him the right and let him smite that too.

Yet, I find 90% of armies made up of christians, and lots of them are Roman Catholics.

Religions cherry-pick the hell out of the bible, and you won't find many Catholics turning down lobster or pork, or refusing to shave on religious grounds, and even the Pope accepts evolution.

The only reason the RCC refuses to ordain women is because they're misogynists. If they can find a just reason for war, in spite of all of Jesus' teachings saying the exact opposite, I'm, 100% certain they could over the ordination if they wished to. A simple revelation in cathedra by Pope Frank will do the trick.



I'm not going to argue the necessity, but you need to learn that differences do not affect equality.

Please do yourself a favor and read the Bible. It explains in the NT why we're no longer subject to the OT laws. In the book of Hebrews, it explains it 4 entire chapters in a row. Please read that book, if nothing else. The RCC follows the Bible very very very closely, and that's why I prefer it over other denominations who have split off from the Church during the Protestant Reformation. If all you do is go on evilbible.com where they pick the bible to ****, then you're not really reading it, I'm sorry. The devil can cite scripture for his own purposes, too.

And if you can give me proof that the only reason why the RCC doesn't ordain women is because they're misogynists, then please show me. I'd like to see it.

And yes, bad people have been involved with the Catholic Church. There are bad Christians, bad pagans, bad atheists, bad everyone. Look how many secular wars were started in the 20th century and how many people died.

Plus the Pope can't just change doctrine. He is to uphold it. If he isn't happy with Catholic teachings, then he shouldn't be the pope in the first place and switch to some other denomination.

And I find it strange that you think evolution and the creation story somehow conflict with each other. Every Catholic I know believes in evolution.

AND no Catholic believes (or ought to believe) that differences affect equality. I don't know where you're getting that from.

[The Atheist]

Please do yourself a favor and read the Bible.

Have done, several times. It's slop. And I've never even heard of evilbible until I read your post.

It explains in the NT why we're no longer subject to the OT laws. In the book of Hebrews, it explains it 4 entire chapters in a row.

I do know all that, but to me, it's just cherry-picking. You cherry-pick that bit because it suits, yet in my lifetime, there was a period most Catholics believed it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays. The RCC has had 2000 years to cherry-pick its way to perfection of doctrine, yet it still fails, and this is why:

Since you avoided the point, I will reiterate that the bible does not justify any way at all of avoiding Jesus' teachings on violence and war, yet Augustine's teachings on "just war" are established Catholic doctrine. The RCC listens to its god when it suits, and shuts its ears at other times.

And if you can give me proof that the only reason why the RCC doesn't ordain women is because they're misogynists, then please show me. I'd like to see it.

The proof is in their lack of action.

Despite immense internal pressures not to, the RCC has actually changed over the centuries, or were you unaware The Inquisition had ended?

Not one of those changes has ever shown an acceptance that women are equal to men. They are enforced second-class citizens within the church every bit as much as some poor woman in a burqa is a captive of her owner, the man.

And I find it strange that you think evolution and the creation story somehow conflict with each other. Every Catholic I know believes in evolution.

Somehow conflict? They are exact opposites, although I will note the ongoing investigation by RCC experts looking for creation in evolution. It is yet another example of cherry-picking, or did I miss the passage in Ephesians where it was explained that Genesis is just allegory?

AND no Catholic believes (or ought to believe) that differences affect equality. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Your own comment - you said "...the Church believes men and women are different. Not unequal, but different. We were created differently and have different roles."

You are claiming the church treats men & women differently because they're different. That is what sexism is all about - treating people differently because they are different.

The RCC allows women no voice whatsoever. And it's not just not allowing women to be priests, or ensuring that the entire management layer of the church is male, it extends to things like residence in the Vatican City itself.

[Delta40]

Aren't I unclean while I menstruate and not allowed to participate in society during this time or are Christians going to cherry pick this part too?