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Thread: Sciences vs. Religion

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    However, you have not provided evidence.
    Then please address the points in the quoted part of my last post that you conveniently snipped off and have not addressed once either in this thread or in any of the QM threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I think the closest we came to agreement is that many worlds does not account for the Born probabilities. That's enough to discredit it.
    Then CI conflicting with everything we know about past physics without being able to disprove those past physics or subsume them or account for them or explain why that contradiction exists should discredit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I can understand that Dawkins and Hitchens want others to view them as better than missionaries for marketing purposes. Nonetheless, they are missionaries: they are looking for converts to their worldview in a religious context.
    This would make every academic and published intellectual a missionary. Helen Vendler (poetry critic) is a missionary because she published books and gives lectures on her interpretations of poets/poetry and she wants converts to her worldview.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    Because of the quantity of violence involved, the evidence of violence traceable to atheists is adequate for my purposes. Atheists are a small proportion of the population. According to the study, they account for three times the amount of violence as others.

    Given that, I have to ask what is wrong with atheists?
    This is identical to noticing that, despite being in the minority, blacks and hispanics are responsible for more violence in the US than are whites. What's wrong with blacks and hispanics? Actually, it's just an indication of why correlation does not PROVE causation, because the explanation for the violence statistics amongst minorities are better accounted for by population density and economics than race. Similar with your atheist/violence statistics. If there was a genuine correlation between violence and atheism then the studies I linked to shouldn't suggest what they do, that many modern secular/atheistic societies were more peaceful than most heavily religious nations. Here's a nice big graph based on a 2009 Global Peace Index study.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    What I am doing is mirroring the argument you have made against theists back onto atheists. When I do that, the evidence reflects even worse on atheists than it does on theists.
    You're not mirroring squat except the fact you don't understand statistics, correlation, causality, or QM; but don't let that stop you.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  2. #62
    User Name is backwards :( Eman Resu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    As I suggested elsewhere, if believers were content to keep their beliefs personal and not project them into everything from public policy to morality to missionary work, I don't think most atheists would have a problem with "living peaceably" with them.

    This would bring scientific thought to an absolute halt, for, if under the assumption that it was "wrong" for those of Faith to bring "their personal beliefs" into Life, it would necessarily follow that science couldn't very well ask them to accept on Faith the scientific principles which they espouse - and this is precisely what the scientific community does daily: expecting the average person to accept on Faith such principles as are beyond their ken.

    Most of us are dumber than a paper bag full of screwdrivers, Sandman, and simply haven't the intellectual wherewithal with which to grasp even quantum mechanics, let alone to remember to feed Schrödinger's cat. The street of "acceptance on Faith" has no "one way" sign; both voices should be heard equally.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman Resu View Post
    This would bring scientific thought to an absolute halt, for, if under the assumption that it was "wrong" for those of Faith to bring "their personal beliefs" into Life, it would necessarily follow that science couldn't very well ask them to accept on Faith the scientific principles which they espouse - and this is precisely what the scientific community does daily: expecting the average person to accept on Faith such principles as are beyond their ken.
    I absolutely did not mean it was wrong for people to bring their "personal beliefs" into life. However, if you ARE going to bring them into life, you better be prepared for backlash, criticism, and scrutiny, especially when your belief rests on a combination of ignorance, illogic, and arrogance. Most believers seem to want to bring their beliefs not only into life, but into social policy, and then complain when there is backlash, resistence, criticism, and scrutiny, many going as far as to complain that there's an immense scientific conspiracy against their God. All of that is easier than admitting they're simply wrong, ignorant, and illogical. IDers, eg, has had their days in court, and have failed every time because they're always forced to demonstrate their ignorance on the subject they're trying to get pushed out of schools (meaning evolution).

    Conversely, science doesn't require faith in its principles because belief in those principles pay rent in anticipated experience. It would be like saying that it requires faith to believe the sun will rise tomorrow; well, no it doesn't, because you can actually test that belief by watching the sunrise. Likewise, look at what belief in the scientific method has given us; our entire modern lives are a testament to its success for understanding how the world works (the means by which we're communicating now being one glowing example; computers were founded on a combination of binary logic and electricity).

    Similarly, I don't believe most science is beyond the ken of most people; maybe mathematics, but most science can be simplified to where someone can understand it. Give me a few days and I think I could teach you what the current "debate" in Quantum Physics is all about without using any technical math. What's more, even if an individual doesn't understand gravity or rocket science, they can appreciate that science has used their understanding of both to travel to the moon. So, again, how much faith does it require once we've seen the results of such supposed understanding? Maybe those scientists are just pulling our leg and just saying they understand gravity and combustion when they're really wizards! But after such a demonstration, even a laymen would realize there has to be some explanation (be it scientists understanding gravity/rocket science or them being wizards) for such feats.

    Religion utterly lacks such demonstrations, even though some are reported to have happened in The Bible, as in that "Religions Claim to be Non-Disprovable" article on Lesswrong, which opens with a Biblical example of a scientific experiment:
    The earliest account I know of a scientific experiment is, ironically, the story of Elijah and the priests of Baal.

    The people of Israel are wavering between Jehovah and Baal, so Elijah announces that he will conduct an experiment to settle it - quite a novel concept in those days! The priests of Baal will place their bull on an altar, and Elijah will place Jehovah's bull on an altar, but neither will be allowed to start the fire; whichever God is real will call down fire on His sacrifice. The priests of Baal serve as control group for Elijah - the same wooden fuel, the same bull, and the same priests making invocations, but to a false god. Then Elijah pours water on his altar - ruining the experimental symmetry, but this was back in the early days - to signify deliberate acceptance of the burden of proof, like needing a 0.05 significance level. The fire comes down on Elijah's altar, which is the experimental observation. The watching people of Israel shout "The Lord is God!" - peer review.
    Isn't it funny that The Bible uses scientific means by which to prove that the Christian God is the real God, but that same God is no longer willing to participate in such experiments? Or provide us with mass demonstrations like a 40-day flood (which remarkably resembles the supposed flood in Gilgamesh written much earlier)? Yudkowsky puts it best: "The vast majority of religions in human history - excepting only those invented extremely recently - tell stories of events that would constitute completely unmistakable evidence if they'd actually happened."
    Last edited by MorpheusSandman; 10-15-2013 at 01:07 PM.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  4. #64
    User Name is backwards :( Eman Resu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    I absolutely did not mean it was wrong for people to bring their "personal beliefs" into life.

    MP - that wasn't intended personally; the intent was simply to state a premise: "if this, then that." There are, however, some people whose convictions are sufficiently strong that they can see only one argument.






    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Isn't it funny that The Bible uses scientific means by which to prove that the Christian God is the real God, but that same God is no longer willing to participate in such experiments?

    The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are seen through widely varying cultural worldviews - almost after the same fashion as Plutarch and Suetonius. When the sun goes down, Cæsar is still Cæsar; the Vast Elephant Shrew is still the Vast Elephant Shrew, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster is still a figment of your imagination.

    That said, we - all of us - bring to the table out Life experiences - our own "baggage" if you will - but the manner in which we treat that "baggage" is what defines us. My Life experiences would never allow me to embrace Atheism, but that doesn't mean that an a-theist philosophy isn't right for anyone who chooses it, nor does it mean that I'd personally refuse to defend the right of any scientific atheist to espouse their beliefs in a public forum.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman Resu View Post
    MP - that wasn't intended personally; the intent was simply to state a premise: "if this, then that." There are, however, some people whose convictions are sufficiently strong that they can see only one argument.
    I didn't take it personally, I was just trying to clarify what I meant. It comes back to what was said about atheists and theists "not living peaceably," and my point was that when anyone is attempting to impose their beliefs onto others through, eg, social policy, then those beliefs need to be criticized, examined, scrutinized, debated, etc., and it's that process that results in the so-called "war." Peace is only possible when people keep to themselves, which isn't really how society works. In societies, we have a mutual responsibility to examine the policies and beliefs that are being promoted by every group. I think science can withstand that scrutiny much better than any religious belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eman Resu View Post
    That said, we - all of us - bring to the table out Life experiences - our own "baggage" if you will - but the manner in which we treat that "baggage" is what defines us. My Life experiences would never allow me to embrace Atheism, but that doesn't mean that an a-theist philosophy isn't right for anyone who chooses it, nor does it mean that I'd personally refuse to defend the right of any scientific atheist to espouse their beliefs in a public forum.
    Why would your life experience not allow you to embrace atheism, out of curiosity (if you don't mind my asking you)? I get what you're saying about us all having our own experiences and baggage, but going back to what I said about society above, it's equally true we aren't alone. Science itself wouldn't have flourished without the scientific community coming together to work through the puzzles in front of them. Personally, I'd like to think that I could come around to any worldview providing that it was true, or for which there was sufficient evidence to suggest it was more likely true than any other possibility. During my own apostasy, truth really became my God, and all of my non-artistic endeavors have been concerned with how we get to that God, and, thus far, rationality and science seem to be the best methods I've found, and it's on scientific and rational grounds I take issue with religion.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  6. #66
    User Name is backwards :( Eman Resu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Why would your life experience not allow you to embrace atheism, out of curiosity (if you don't mind my asking you)?

    I don't mind in the least. I've spent more than four decades in a vocation which I genuinely Love - I honestly cannot wait to get to work every morning. I came of age in an household where reason and learning were revered, and had every possible benefit Life could offer - Parents who acted as guides rather than overlords; tutors whose patience with my inabilities was monumental, and later in Life, three mentors who treated me with incredible kindness. My Life path led through remarkable educational institutions, and prepared me even without my knowledge for the Life I've had the good fortune to live. I was blessed (my belief) with a fair-to-middling memory, the ability to learn and to retain - especially as regards languages - and I have either had extraordinary luck in Life, or I've been under the watchful eyes of more Angels, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. I've never had to "work" at anything, and yet I live in comfortable surroundings whose acreage affords me the ability to walk in fields, words or along the edge of what Mister Blanding might have called, "a slow, broad river, deep and still." I've been privileged to handle some of the most beautiful books in the world on a daily basis; I've the fine company of eight rescue cats whose Love is boundless and without condition; I haven't seen a physician in more than fifty years; I can literally count the number of "bad days" I've had on a single hand... honestly, this could go on ad infinitum, but I suspect that the germ of thought is pretty clear. A better question - given the condition of circumstance - might be, "how could I not believe in God?"

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    You don't have personal baggage. Whatever you think or do is of God and everyone else. As you approach the end of your time, the only thing you have to act with, in any way, you become fooler by the measure if you don't realize that you stupidly demand to be listened in your idiotic personal baggage which, no one could listen to, if obeying your idiotic contention, it were personal. Who are you trying to kid apart from yourself? Watch closely. I think you just pee and farted galore.

  8. #68
    User Name is backwards :( Eman Resu's Avatar
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    Amusing above, in the penultimate sentence of expository, the typographical error, "words" for "woods." Typical bookseller gibberish, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman Resu View Post
    A better question - given the condition of circumstance - might be, "how could I not believe in God?"
    Well, I'm genuinely happy that you've had such a good life as far too few are afforded the luxury. I suspect that had it not been for my health problems my situation would've been almost identical to yours and, indeed, I probably never would've had a reason to question if God existed myself. However, doesn't your post basically boil down to "my life has been good, so God must exist and be looking out for me," and doesn't that seem an awfully solipsistic reason?
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Well, I'm genuinely happy that you've had such a good life as far too few are afforded the luxury. I suspect that had it not been for my health problems my situation would've been almost identical to yours and, indeed, I probably never would've had a reason to question if God existed myself. However, doesn't your post basically boil down to "my life has been good, so God must exist and be looking out for me," and doesn't that seem an awfully solipsistic reason?

    Have I put Des cartes before the horse? Could be, yes. We disagree philosophically, and yet we afford one another the courtesy of broad berth. There are worse things, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman Resu View Post
    Have I put Des cartes before the horse?
    Whatever our philosophical disagreements, I'm enjoying your clever wordplay!
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Whatever our philosophical disagreements, I'm enjoying your clever wordplay!

    Not nearly as much as I'm enjoying the fact that you've been somehow fooled into thinking that I'm capable of clever wordplay. Besides, I doubt that our philosophies are much in disaccord; that would make us both disaccordian, and we'd be playing one another. Personally, I've never cared for polka music.

  13. #73
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    No, not at all. As Luke Muelhausser's banner on commonsenseatheism says: "Atheism is just the beginning; now it's time to solve the harder questions." In fact, I said as much when I said "Rejecting religion does not mean eliminating that bias completely, but it is one step on the path to rejecting all mystical thinking and the cognitive biases that produce them." I do believe that any true rationalism will reject religion and all mystical thinking, but rejecting mystical thinking does not endow one with a "perfected rationalist" membership card. Most atheists I know are only marginally (if at all) more rational than most of the theists I know. However, all of the most rational people I know are atheists.
    I disagree that religious ideas cannot be rational. To quote A.H. Maslow the great American psychologist "One could say that the nineteenth-century atheist had burnt down the house instead of remodeling it. He had thrown out the religious questions with the religious answers, because he had to reject the religious answers. That is, he turned his back on the whole religious enterprise because organized religion presented him with a set of answers which he could not intellectually accept--which rested on no evidence which a self-respecting scientist could swallow. But what the more sophisticated scientist is now in the process of learning is that though he must disagree with most of the answers to the religious questions which have been given by organized religion, it is increasingly clear that the religious questions themselves--and religious quests, the religious yearnings, the religious needs themselves--are perfectly respectable scientifically, that they are rooted deep in human nature, that they can be studied, described, examined in a scientific way, and that the churches were trying to answer perfectly sound human questions." - A.H. Maslow 'Religions, Values, and Peak-Experiences' p.18.

    Try to think of theology as a constantly evolving discipline that represents the best answers to metaphysical questions we currently have the way that science represents the best explanations for concrete reality that we currently have.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    I largely agree with this, however I'd put the qualifier "most" before "people become atheists" as I do think there are some people that develop an interest in rationality that lead them one way or another. I said in my post describing my apostasy, my interest in logic/rationality and epistemology developed during my years of doubts and true agnosticism (when I was genuinely unsure). I think the more interesting question is: if we you were to introduce a true agnostic to rationality and logic, and if they were to genuinely "perfect" the arts of both, would they be more likely to choose theism or atheism? Obviously based on my own experience I'd say the latter, because I do feel that it was rationality that was one of the major things that lead me away from theism to begin with.
    It depends. Which side of the fence you land on using rationality is largely going to be dependent on outside social forces such as your time and social norms. Remember that the greatest rationalists, empiricists, and scientists in history have often been religious: Descartes, Pascal, Newton, etc. Then there is a literature thousands of years old comprised of logical arguments for the existence of God. Remember that in the eighteenth century the atheist Denis Diderot lamented that all the science and great thinkers were on the opposite side of the debate from him. What you should wonder, in the case of your own conversion, is if you'd found books X,Y, and Z before you found books R,S, and T, would you still be an atheist? How much of your atheism is dependent on the facts you were presented with, who presented them, and the malleability of your beliefs at the time you found your answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    One minor correction: In your last sentence, I think you're confusing rationality with rationalization, and they aren't the same. Most rationalizations contain logical flaws and cognitive biases that reveal what the believing brains WANT to believe. Genuine rationality exists to prevent such mistakes. I've said before that I'm only interested in the truth. If God announced himself tomorrow then I would have no qualms about converting to theism and whatever sect he said (and demonstrated) was the right one. Obviously, there are some atheists (mostly the anti-theists) that have deep-seated prejudices against religion for any number of reasons (a gay friend of mind has been brutally persecuted by Christians in his past, so his hatred of the religion stems primarily from that), but I am not one of them. If anything, given that my entire family is Christian, it would be much easier on me if I DID believe. The only thing preventing me from believing is, well, my adherence to genuine rationality.
    Yes, I suppose I did mean rationalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    I grouped these two rebuttals together because they're both committing a different form of the genetic fallacy. I don't think it matters where any idea comes from, it only matters where the evidence is pointing at the time. I know more than one AI researcher who strongly believes that the singularity is not only a possibility but an inevitability. Most of the arguments AGAINST the singularity come from decidedly non-experts in AI that want to lump it under the category of jet-packs and underwater cities. FWIW, I am not convinced the singularity is an inevitability, but I am no AI researcher either. I'm just saying I don't think it belongs in the same category as Tarot Cards, as we already have AI. The question is merely can we develop AI sophisticated enough to mimic (and/or better) the human brain. The only people that can answer that are the people that do it for a living, not ignorant schmucks like you or I.
    Oh, I'm quite aware of the genetic fallacy. The philosopher and psychologist William James covered this aspect of religion in his classic The Varieties of Religious Experience. His point, briefly stated goes:
    James believed that the study of the origin of an object or an idea does not play a role in the study of its value. He asserted that existential judgment, or the scientific examination of an object's origin, is a separate matter from that object's value. As an example, he alluded to the Quaker religion and its founder, George Fox. Many of the scientists in James' audience immediately reject all aspects of the Quaker religion because evidence suggests that Fox was schizophrenic. Calling this rejection medical materialism, James insisted that the origin of Fox's notions about religion should not come into account when assessing the value of the Quaker religion. As an aside, many believe El Greco to have suffered from astigmatism, yet no one would dismiss his art based on this medical detail. James proposed, somewhat sarcastically, that his audience's atheism was perhaps a dysfunction of the liver. Some believe science to be superior to religion because of religion's seemingly vain, unfounded, or perhaps insane origin. In his lectures, James asserted that these claims, while perhaps historically or epistemologically interesting, play no role in the separate question of religion's value. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieti...ous_Experience
    And from the man himself:
    Perhaps the commonest expression of this assumption that spiritual value is undone if lowly origin be asserted is seen in those comments which unsentimental people so often pass on their more sentimental acquaintances. Alfred believes in immortality so strongly because his temperament is so emotional. Fanny's extraordinary conscientiousness is merely a matter of over-instigated nerves. William's melancholy about the universe is due to bad digestion—probably his liver is torpid. Eliza's delight in her church is a symptom of her hysterical constitution. Peter would be less troubled about his soul if he would take more exercise in the open air, etc. A more fully developed example of the same kind of reasoning is the fashion, quite common nowadays among certain writers, of criticising the religious emotions by showing a connection between them and the sexual life. Conversion is a crisis of puberty and adolescence. The macerations of saints, and the devotion of missionaries, are only instances of the parental instinct of self-sacrifice gone astray. For the hysterical nun, starving for natural life, Christ is but an imaginary substitute for a more earthly object of affection. And the like.[1]

    We are surely all familiar in a general way with this method of discrediting states of mind for which we have an antipathy. We all use it to some degree in criticising persons whose states of mind we regard as overstrained. But when other people criticise our own more exalted soul-flights by calling them 'nothing but' expressions of our organic disposition, we feel outraged and hurt, for we know that, whatever be our organism's peculiarities, our mental states have their substantive value as revelations of the living truth; and we wish that all this medical materialism could be made to hold its tongue.

    Medical materialism seems indeed a good appellation for the too simple-minded system of thought which we are considering. Medical materialism finishes up Saint Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the occipital cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out Saint Teresa as an hysteric, Saint Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate. George Fox's discontent with the shams of his age, and his pining for spiritual veracity, it treats as a symptom of a disordered colon. Carlyle's organ-tones of misery it accounts for by a gastro-duodenal catarrh. All such mental over-tensions, it says, are, when you come to the bottom of the matter, mere affairs of diathesis (auto-intoxications most probably), due to the perverted action of various glands which physiology will yet discover.

    And medical materialism then thinks that the spiritual authority of all such personages is successfully undermined.[2]

    Let us ourselves look at the matter in the largest possible way. Modern psychology, finding definite psycho-physical connections to hold good, assumes as a convenient hypothesis that the dependence of mental states upon bodily conditions must be thorough-going and complete. If we adopt the assumption, then of course what medical materialism insists on must be true in a general way, if not in every detail: Saint Paul certainly had once an epileptoid, if not an epileptic seizure; George Fox was an hereditary degenerate; Carlyle was undoubtedly auto-intoxicated by some organ or other, no matter which,—and the rest. But now, I ask you, how can such an existential account of facts of mental history decide in one way or another upon their spiritual significance? According to the general postulate of psychology just referred to, there is not a single one of our states of mind, high or low, healthy or morbid, that has not some organic process as its condition. Scientific theories are organically conditioned just as much as religious emotions are; and if we only knew the facts intimately enough, we should doubtless see 'the liver' determining the dicta of the sturdy atheist as decisively as it does that of the Methodist under conviction anxious about his soul. When it alters in one way the blood that percolates it, we get the methodist, when in another way, we get the atheist form of mind. So of all our raptures and our drynesses, our longings and pantings, our questions and beliefs. They are equally organically founded, be they of religious or of non-religious content.

    To plead the organic causation of a religious state of mind, then, in refutation of its claim to possess superior spiritual value, is quite illogical and arbitrary, unless one have already worked out in advance some psycho-physical theory connecting spiritual values in general with determinate sorts of physiological change. Otherwise none of our thoughts and feelings, not even our scientific doctrines, not even our dis-beliefs, could retain any value as revelations of the truth, for every one of them without exception flows from the state of their possessor's body at the time.

    It is needless to say that medical materialism draws in point of fact no such sweeping skeptical conclusion. It is sure, just as every simple man is sure, that some states of mind are inwardly superior to others, and reveal to us more truth, and in this it simply makes use of an ordinary spiritual judgment. It has no physiological theory of the production of these its favorite states, by which it may accredit them; and its attempt to discredit the states which it dislikes, by vaguely associating them with nerves and liver, and connecting them with names connoting bodily affliction, is altogether illogical and inconsistent.

    Let us play fair in this whole matter, and be quite candid with ourselves and with the facts. When we think certain states of mind superior to others, is it ever because of what we know concerning their organic antecedents? No! it is always for two entirely different reasons. It is either because we take an immediate delight in them; or else it is because we believe them to bring us good consequential fruits for life. When we speak disparagingly of 'feverish fancies,' surely the fever-process as such is not the ground of our disesteem for aught we know to the contrary, 103° or 104° Fahrenheit might be a much more favorable temperature for truths to germinate and sprout in, than the more ordinary blood-heat of 97 or 98 degrees. It is either the disagreeableness itself of the fancies, or their inability to bear the criticisms of the convalescent hour. When we praise the thoughts which health brings, health's peculiar chemical metabolisms have nothing to do with determining our judgment. We know in fact almost nothing about these metabolisms. It is the character of inner happiness in the thoughts which stamps them as good, or else their consistency with our other opinions and their serviceability for our needs, which make them pass for true in our esteem.

    Now the more intrinsic and the more remote of these criteria do not always hang together. Inner happiness and serviceability do not always agree. What immediately feels most 'good' is not always most 'true,' when measured by the verdict of the rest of experience. The difference between Philip drunk and Philip sober is the classic instance in corroboration. If merely 'feeling good' could decide, drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. But its revelations, however acutely satisfying at the moment, are inserted into an environment which refuses to bear them out for any length of time. The consequence of this discrepancy of the two criteria is the uncertainty which still prevails over so many of our spiritual judgments. There are moments of sentimental and mystical experience we shall hereafter hear much of them that carry an enormous sense of inner authority and illumination with them when they come. But they come seldom, and they do not come to every one; and the rest of life makes either no connection with them, or tends to contradict them more than it confirms them. Some persons follow more the voice of the moment in these cases, some prefer to be guided by the average results. Hence the sad discordancy of so many of the spiritual judgments of human beings; a discordancy which will be brought home to us acutely enough before these lectures end.


    It is, however, a discordancy that can never be resolved by any merely medical test. A good example of the impossibility of holding strictly to the medical tests is seen in the theory of the pathological causation of genius promulgated by recent authors. "Genius," said Dr. Moreau, "is but one of the many branches of the neuropathic tree." "Genius," says Dr. Lombroso, "is a symptom of hereditary degeneration of the epileptoid variety, and is allied to moral insanity." "Whenever a man's life," writes Mr. Nisbet, "is at once sufficiently illustrious and recorded with sufficient fullness to be a subject of profitable study, be inevitably falls into the morbid category. … And it is worthy of remark that, as a rule, the greater the genius, the greater the unsoundness."[3]

    Now do these authors, after having succeeded in establishing to their own satisfaction that the works of genius are fruits of disease, consistently proceed thereupon to impugn the value of the fruits? Do they deduce a new spiritual judgment from their new doctrine of existential conditions? Do they frankly forbid us to admire the productions of genius from now onwards? and say outright that no neuropath can ever be a revealer of new truth?

    No! their immediate spiritual instincts are too strong for them here, and hold their own against inferences which, in mere love of logical consistency, medical materialism ought to be only too glad to draw. One disciple of the school, indeed, has striven to impugn the value of works of genius in a wholesale way (such works of contemporary art, namely, as he himself is unable to enjoy, and they are many) by using medical arguments.[4] But for the most part the masterpieces are left unchallenged; and the medical line of attack either confines itself to such secular productions as every one admits to be intrinsically eccentric, or else addresses itself exclusively to religious manifestations. And then it is because the religious manifestations have been already condemned because the critic dislikes them on internal or spiritual grounds.

    In the natural sciences and industrial arts it never occurs to any one to try to refute opinions by showing up their author's neurotic constitution. Opinions here are invariably tested by logic and by experiment, no matter what may be their author's neurological type. It should be no otherwise with religious opinions. Their value can only be ascertained by spiritual judgments directly passed upon them, judgments based on our own immediate feeling primarily; and secondarily on what we can ascertain of their experiential relations to our moral needs and to the rest of what we hold as true.

    Immediate luminousness, in short, philosophical reasonableness, and moral helpfulness are the only available criteria. Saint Teresa might have had the nervous system of the placidest cow, and it would not now save her theology, if the trial of the theology by these other tests should show it to be contemptible. And conversely if her theology can stand these other tests, it will make no difference how hysterical or nervously off her balance Saint Teresa may have been when she was with us here below.
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Va...ence/Lecture_I
    Briefly stated, the messenger is not the message. I just found it amusing that you would accept religious doctrine repackaged as science fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    I don't even know what you mean "the conflict thesis has been discredited by modern historians of science." We have an ongoing war in the US between IDers and Evolutionists who deny evolution solely for the fact that they believe in the literal Genesis creation. How is that not a conflict? How was the conflict between Galileo and the Church not an actual conflict? How are the many demonstrably wrong Biblical claims about cosmology, the earth, biology, or even cures for leprosy? How in funk when God says to get the blood of a bird and do incantations to cure leprosy (14:49) is that NOT in direct conflict with science? Of course, it's not all that hard to "interpret away" many problems in Biblical science by claiming they were just allegories. In modern fiction we call this fanwanking.
    You know that creationists are just a bunch of cranks and most theists believe in evolution though, right? We've all been on the same page since the beginning. Charles Kingsley was a priest and friend of Charles Darwin who was influential in popularizing his theories. Darwin even included a quote of his from a letter in a preface to the second edition of The Origin of Species:
    "It's just as noble a conception of God to think that he created animals and plants that then evolved, that were capable of self-development, as it is to think that God has to constantly create new forms and fill in the gaps that he's left in his own creation."
    Then you have Darwin's other influential theistic friends who helped popularize his theories. There was Frederick Temple the Archbishop of Canterbury:
    Temple had a lifelong interest in science and religion. In 1860 at the famous meeting of the British Association which saw the debate between Thomas Huxley and Samuel Wilberforce, Temple preached a sermon welcoming the insights of evolution.[4] In his Eight Brampton Lectures on the Relations between Religion and Science (1884) he states clearly that "doctrine of Evolution is in no sense whatever antagonistic to the teachings of Religion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Temple
    Asa Gray, the most famous American botanist of the 19th century who popularized Darwin's theories on this continent, and corresponded with him was a believer in God and wrote his book "Darwiniana" trying to reconcile theists and evolutionists.
    Gray denied that investigation of physical causes stood opposed to the theological view and the study of the harmonies between mind and Nature, and thought it "most presumable that an intellectual conception realized in Nature would be realized through natural agencies" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Gra...ip_with_Darwin
    A relationship that continues today.
    According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education, "In one form or another, Theistic Evolutionism is the view of creation taught at the majority of mainline Protestant seminaries, and it is the official position of the Catholic church". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accepta...ligious_groups
    The conflict relationship model between science and religion has it's roots in the writings of Draper and White in the nineteenth century, but few modern scientific historians believe in it. It's mostly been disproved and discredited and several decades ago at that.
    The conflict thesis, which states that there is an intrinsic intellectual conflict between religion and science, remains generally popular for the public; most historians of science no longer support it.[1][2][3][4] Other contemporary scientists such as Stephen Jay Gould, Francisco Ayala, Kenneth R. Miller and Francis Collins hold that religion and science are non-overlapping magisteria, addressing fundamentally separate forms of knowledge and aspects of life. Some theologians or historians of science, including John Lennox, Thomas Berry, Brian Swimme and Ken Wilber propose an interconnection between them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relatio...on_and_science
    Then in the case of Galileo the Catholic Church did not act as a homogenous whole. The pope at the time had even been an admirer of Galileo's when he'd been a bishop, which encouraged Galileo to publish his theories a second time, leading to the trial. While the trial was ongoing Galileo stayed at the palace of a church official, and during the period of his "house arrest" he stayed for some months at the house of the archbishop of Siena, a friend of his. But this is one example of religion coming into conflict with science. For every such example there are ten more of religion fostering science and helping it along. Consider this article in the economist which brakes down the Catholic Church's finances in the US.
    with the result that there are now over 6,800 Catholic schools (5% of the national total); 630 hospitals (11%) plus a similar number of smaller health facilities; and 244 colleges and universities. Many of these institutions are known for excellence: seven of the leading 25 part-time law school programmes in America are Catholic (five are run by Jesuits). A quarter of the 100 top-ranked hospitals are Catholic. All these institutions are subject to the oversight of a bishop or a religious order.

    The Economist estimates that annual spending by the church and entities owned by the church was around $170 billion in 2010 (the church does not release such figures). We think 57% of this goes on health-care networks, followed by 28% on colleges, http://www.economist.com/node/21560536
    That's right. The Catholic Church spends 48.8 Billion dollars a year on American education, and that is nothing compared to what they've done in Europe over the course of twenty centuries. Practically all of the schools in Europe at one point were probably run by the Church and staffed entirely by Christian scientists.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
    "This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
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  14. #74
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    I disagree that religious ideas cannot be rational. To quote A.H. Maslow the great American psychologist... Try to think of theology as a constantly evolving discipline that represents the best answers to metaphysical questions we currently have the way that science represents the best explanations for concrete reality that we currently have.
    This would depend on what you mean by "religious ideas." I would define religious ideas as any systematic theory centered around some supernatural deity that exists and who has "revealed" those "religious ideas" to believers. To me, the entire last sentence cannot be reconciled with rationality. I suspect that many of the "best answers to metaphysical questions" religion could give us are not the unique property of religion to begin with. That quote by Maslow reminds me of the writings of William Blake and Carl Jung, both of whom explored what one may call "religious quests, yearnings, and needs" themselves. In fact, I wrote this recently about both on another forum:
    Speaking a someone with a love for mythology, art, and as someone who very much believes in transcendental (some may call them "religious") experiences, I very much like the idea of God as an idea. After my apostasy in my teens, I spent many years feeling that "God" was just this stupid lie invented by stupid people, but then I read authors like Carl Jung, William Blake, and I began to see that God could very much represent the "eternal" within man. I loved Jung's interpretation of Genesis as being an allegory about how knowledge pulled man away from his origins, represented by God/Eden, which he associated with the rise of consciousness, even with the individual maturation process where the child begins to recognize him/herself as an individual separate from their mother (so we have these interlocking associations between Eden/God/Mothers/The womb and knowledge/fruits/Good/Evil, etc.).

    William Blake had, IMO, an even more enlightening interpretation on the matter. For Blake, much like Jung, religions were just allegorical expressions of the psychological inner life of man, but Blake delved deeper into both the positive and negative aspects of this. For Blake, the God of the Old Testament was akin to his "Urizen," the God whom, after the fall, tries to create order from chaos, and order comes in the form of rules and law and the suppression of emotion (emotion represented by his "Orc"). Blake saw the unleashing of "Orc" as representing the uprising of, eg, people against government, of chaos over the existing order. But Blake later incorporated Los as well, or the power of imagination. For Blake, Los was the equivalent of Jesus, the God that came in the form of man, the God that told stories and parables. Blake thought that it was Los's responsibility to transform the raw power of Orc into something visionary, prophetic, which is what he saw in Milton's Satan; ie, a "Los/poet" in Milton who "descended to hell" to transform "Satan/Orc" into a revolutionary, visionary force. So Blake had a very elaborate, eloquent, allegorical take on The Bible, one which he never dismissed as wholly bad or wholly good, but rather one in which he felt he could subsume into his own mythology.

    So I guess that's what I mean when I say I like God as an idea, but I dislike God as a fundamental, external, concept that can actually explain nature in any remotely scientific manner. The chance of there being an external "God" out there that created the universe and man is almost zero, in my estimation. But the chance of there being "God" in an abstract sense within man is 100%. I just wish more would get acquainted with Blake's God/Jesus rather than taking the God/Jesus of The Bible literally.
    The way you talk about religion and quote Maslow reminds me of the vestiges of religion I still think have some validity, as allegorical expressions of human psychology, but NOT as systems for understanding anything about objective reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    Which side of the fence you land on using rationality is largely going to be dependent on outside social forces such as your time and social norms... What you should wonder, in the case of your own conversion, is if you'd found books X,Y, and Z before you found books R,S, and T, would you still be an atheist? How much of your atheism is dependent on the facts you were presented with, who presented them, and the malleability of your beliefs at the time you found your answers?
    I don't like the notion that what side of the fence you land on "using rationality" is dependent on social forces, as what would be the point of rationality if you couldn't use it to change your mind when "social forces" were wrong? It reminds me of a section of this article:
    This is why rationalists put such a heavy premium on the paradoxical-seeming claim that a belief is only really worthwhile if you could, in principle, be persuaded to believe otherwise. If your retina ended up in the same state regardless of what light entered it, you would be blind. Some belief systems, in a rather obvious trick to reinforce themselves, say that certain beliefs are only really worthwhile if you believe them unconditionally— no matter what you see, no matter what you think. Your brain is supposed to end up in the same state regardless. Hence the phrase, "blind faith". If what you believe doesn't depend on what you see, you've been blinded as effectively as by poking out your eyeballs.
    Indeed, there's also the oft-used quote amongst Bayesian rationalists (of which I'm one) that true rationalists can't agree to disagree. Now, you may (fairly) say that the "social forces" would be an integral part of any individual's priors, which is why I specified a "true agnostic," meaning someone who may put the probability of God at precisely 50%, as that would imply that their priors, the "social forces," would've only lead them to the place where their belief is 50/50. Hence the question of where rationality would lead in that specific situation, since in that situation the ultimate belief should be affected more by rationality rather than social forces.

    As for the question you ask about me personally, one thing I should stress is that when I began my odyssey of apostasy I grudgingly gave up ever inch of ground of my belief. I started out very much wanting to believe, wanting to find answers to my questions, wanting to maintain this thing that had been an integral part of my entire life up until that point. However, it was equally my realization that I couldn't give into easy, cliched, rationalized answers--hence my simultaneous interest in epistemology and rationality. I (perhaps unconsciously at the time) wanted to establish a method for evaluating the evidence on both sides, and not falling for convincing but ultimately empty/false rhetoric. So I don't think it was a matter of what books/evidences I encountered when as I read A LOT on both sides, even a lot of debates where I got to hear both sides back-to-back. So, again, I credit my interest in rationality with my inability to buy into the theist arguments despite my extremely strong proclivity FOR believing them. Even today, the social pressures around me (my family, friends, most of my past girlfriends) are pushing me towards belief. Were it not for my subscription to rationality I don't see any other reason for me not to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    I just found it amusing that you would accept religious doctrine repackaged as science fiction.
    Again, I'm not accepting it, what I'm saying is that I don't think the singularity belongs on the same list as things like Tarot Cards and the like as genuine experts in the field feel it is a very real possibility if not an inevitability. These are people that are already capable of making advanced AI, so AI is a reality; singularity is a possible end-point of that current reality. It requires, IMO, more serious consideration than the other "pseudo-sciences" (actually, the singularity isn't even a "science," pseudo or otherwise).

    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    You know that creationists are just a bunch of cranks and most theists believe in evolution though, right?
    Yes, but they're a noisy bunch of cranks with a lot of money and power backing them, enough to have made it to the US Supreme Court, enough to have made several attempts at getting ID taught in public schools. However, you still must admit that they are one very real, very current examples of religion opposing science. Whether they're a minority or not is really beside the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    The conflict relationship model between science and religion has it's roots in the writings of Draper and White in the nineteenth century, but few modern scientific historians believe in it. It's mostly been disproved and discredited and several decades ago at that.
    And what of the other conflicts I mentioned? What of all the passages in The Bible, especially about physical reality, that are out of step with modern science? Do believers just sweep them under the rug? Read them all as allegories? Pretend they were just errors made by fallible humans? Besides, even besides all of those, I still maintain that the scientific way of understanding reality VS the religious way are completely opposed, and the only way to reconcile them is to compartmentalize, to claim that science is limited to certain areas and that in those areas that religion can maintain authority. I maintain that this "separate magisterium" theory is complete BS, as the Yudkowsky article I've already posted twice (I think) argues.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  15. #75
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    And what of the other conflicts I mentioned? What of all the passages in The Bible, especially about physical reality, that are out of step with modern science?
    Limiting Christian thought to the Bible is akin to limiting medical science to Galen. There has been a wealth of progress and thought since then. Some things don't hold up but then some things do. Science is an evolving discipline like Theology, and when one idea becomes outdated it is replaced with a new one that better explains the available evidence. Your argument is a straw man. You wouldn't claim that philosophy is disprovable garbage and stopped with the ancient Greeks. And I don't see you claiming that subjects like art, literature, and music are in conflict with science. Come to think of it, atheists always frame their argument in such a weird limited way. I've never seen a theist ask an atheist to justify the scientific and metaphysical beliefs of Epicurus and Lucretius, and then pretend like atheist culture never changed after them. You're not engaging with Christianity as a 21st century culture.
    Last edited by mortalterror; 10-16-2013 at 04:27 AM.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
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