Ivanhoe

[Prince Smiles]

By St. Dunstan, a surprisingly serious book with some very well drawn and memorable characters.
I was expecting a simpler story with lots more action. Scott introduces us to a few fictional characters, particularly, Isaac of York and his beautiful daughter, Rebecca who come up against very serious situations, prejudices, and affairs of the heart. There is plenty of action, but it seems to take a seat to the dialogue, the love triangle, and copious amounts of quotations. One definitely needs an annotated copy to appreciate the genius of Scott’s writing to the fullest.

Always a fan of fictional characters sharing the pages with historic ones, Ivanhoe does not disappoint. Good olde boys: Robin Hood, Friar Tuck, Richard Coeur de Lion, duking it out with fictional Norman knights and a templar or two.

Wamba the fool and Gurth the swineherd are a hoot, somewhat reminiscent of Barnaby Rudge and Hugh in “Barnaby Rudge”.

The last book I read, Pere Goriot had his characters failing to live up to moral codes, in Scott’s novel Ivanhoe, it is the opposite, his characters live by and up to the high moral codes of chivalry.

Yes, there are many historic errors and inaccuracies in the book, and aye, it is a little wordy and bombastic at times, but by the belt of St. Christopher I enjoyed it.

From the young to the middle-aged, and to the aged, this piece of fiction published in 1820, set in the Middle Ages and aging nicely is, by the royal blood of Alfred, merry reading my good yeomen and yeowomen.

[Pen Name]

Is this the same book I read?

Yes it is, Prince smiles has made me smile with his review, a rattling good read, no annotation needed, and Richard the Lion heart is in it, is he, we are actually left to think he is, but you need to read the book to see what I mean, that is a technique Scott handles with deft aplomb.

Written in the beginning of the 19th Century, what struck me, was the way prejudice was so deftly handled head on, and a little bit of me is still in love with Rebecca, or is it Liz Taylor, superbly cast in the film.

A classic tale of love and adventure, without being soppy and sentimental.

[Hawkman]

I'm inclined to agree that Rebecca was the more attractive of the female characters in Ivanhoe, and not because I fancied Elizabeth Taylor either. I don't think I was ever that taken with Liz. What I do find interesting is the way Ivanhoe has impinged upon and been incorporated into the Robin Hood legend in the more recent films.

Now when I was a kid, the Robin Hood story that I knew and loved was really the 1939 Hollywood version starring Errol Flynn and Olivia de Havilland. In this version of the tale Robin was the Saxon Earl of Loxley and his enemies were King John and the Sherriff of Nottingham. His enemies at least have remained fairly constant, though his rank seems to jump up and down on the social scale depending on the storyteller's requirements. In the 1939 version, Robin did not follow Richard on Crusade, but when Kevin Costner's infamous version hit our screens he was now a knight who had gone on crusade, defying the wishes of his father and returned, like Ivanhoe. Maid Marion had undergone something of a transformation too. She was now a neighbour's daughter and a childhood playmate who had her own problems with the Sherriff. By the time Russell Crowe had donned the outlaw's mantle he had dropped in status somewhat to the orphaned son of stonemason who was a man at arms and yeoman archer in Richard's post Crusading skirmishes in France and returned home on Richard's death impersonating Robert of Loxley. Marion was now Loxley's widow. King John is still the bad guy.

Interestingly, the earliest surviving ballades of Robin Hood date only from the 15th Century. At this time Edward IV is the king mentioned and Robin is a rascally outlaw living either in Sherwood or Barnsdale. Here we find a connection to the Russell Crowe tale.

Marion makes no appearance in the early English ballades, though there is some general conformity over the nature of Robin's death. He is said to have gone to Kirklees or Church Lees to undergo medical treatment, (bleeding). Here, the prioress, who is described as, 'hys kynne' contrives to kill him by attempting to bleed him to death. Mortally wounded he either realises that he is the victim of treachery and is collected by Little John to be taken away to die, or is stabbed through the side by one "Red Roger" (in cahoots with the Prioress) but kills his assailant and is then taken away by Little John who wants to take revenge by burning down the priory and killing the prioress. However, Robin forbids this.

There is also a legend that when dying he shot an arrow out the window and requested that he be buried where it landed, but I understand this to be a later addition. This is referenced in the Sean Connery film Robin and Marion, where the Prioress of Kirklees is now Marion. Possibly as a result of a television version of the tale, the prioress has also been described as Guy of Gisborne's Sister. (in the old ballades Robin has killed both the Sherriff and Guy, on occasion, although sometimes the Sherriff has been killed by Little John).

Marion, however, does not actually appear in the English legend of Robin Hood until the 16th Century. There is mention of Robin and Marion together in a poem by Alexander Barclay written around 1513-14, with robin and Marion as the king and queen of the May, but he suggests that the two stories are still separate. An English Poet, John Gower, did make reference to Robin and Marion, in a poem Mirour de l'homme though not actually as a pair directly associated with the Robin Hood legend, around 1379. It refers to Robin and Marion participating in rustic revelry. But this was a poem in French and probably stems from a French pastoral play, 'Robin et Marion' associated with May celebrations written by Adam de la Halle around 1283. In this tale, Marion, a shepherdess, resists the attentions of a randy Knight and remains loyal to her lover, Robin.

It is not until 1598 that Anthony Munday links Robin and Marion as a couple and places Robin Hood in the reign of Richard the Lionheart in two plays, The Downfall of Robert Earl of Huntington and The Death of Robert Earl of Huntington. This appears to be following Richard Grafton, whose 1569, "Chronicle at Large" mentions Robin as a disinherited Earl. He may have derived his date from John Major's 1521 "History of Great Britain" which puts Robin in the reign of Richard the Lionheart. In Grafton's play Marion was originally Matilda, but ran away to the greenwood with Robin and changed her name.

So really Ivanhoe's influence on the contemporary telling of the Robin Hood legend is just one in a long line of adaptations and embellishments to the tale. Scott appropriated a convenient legendary character to add a little spice to his story, and the inevitable cross-pollination of Ivanhoe and Robin Hood continues to influence storytellers who add yet further twists and turns to an already knotty narrative. Perhaps the postmodernists are on to something. Barthes' "Death of the Author" really just illustrates how no one Author can claim proprietorial rights on any story. Derrida's claim that, 'there is nothing outside the text,' essentially means that no text can exist in isolation, but draws inevitably upon the past, contemporary sensibilities and succumbs to current socio political influences. I just wish they hadn't called it Postmodernism, which when talking about medieval texts is anachronistic, (which is postmodern in itself!) It really is a stupid name. You can make the same arguments about Homer! What comes after Postmodernism: Nowism?

Live long and prosper - H

[Jackson Richardson]

Sullivan's opera on Ivanhoe was recorded a few years' ago and is worthwhile (although old fashioned by the time it was written in the 1890s).

Friar Tuck's drinking song "Ho jolly Jenkin" is fun, but the only youtube bit I can find is Rebecca's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kghNlWySJE

[prendrelemick]

Richard Greene will always be Robin Hood for me.




One of the most interesting early appearance of Robin Hood was in a throw away line in Langland's Piers ploughman, where the narrator says he knows the songs of Robin Hood better than his scripture. He is saying he is low bred - and and is using his and his readers knowledge of the Robin Hood songs to illustrate this. So it seems Robin's legend was well known in 1377 among the unlettered peasant class. The question is, how old was the Legend before anything was written down.

[Hawkman]

Yes, I was aware of the mention in Piers Plowman, but unfortunately we don't know which ballades he was referring to. The French ones perhaps? It's more than possible that itinerant troubadours might have ventured a version into English, seeing as the French tale had been around since 1283. Of course, without evidence we can't really say. Either way, the nature of the tale has evolved over the centuries, so I wonder how many familiar elements we would find in a 14th century version. Some people claim Chaucer mentions him in the Canterbury Tales, Line 3555; the Miller's tale, but though there is a mention of "Robyn" I can see no reason to associate this chap with Robin Hood. He's just a servant.

[prendrelemick]

What I was trying to say (badly) was that by the context in Piers Ploughman he seems to have been an uncouth subject - so perhaps he was that randy knight.


ps, I enjoyed the review of Ivanhoe, one of the very first books I ever owned.

[free]

I love Walter Scott and especially this novel, too. Recently I have read that Leopold von Ranke, a German historian, started to write a huge history book in his old age after realising that some historical facts given in Scott's novels were not correct.

[Jackson Richardson]

I've just started re-reading Ivanhoe and I'm flagging up this thread so I can add comments later.