Pub licensing and discrimination

[LitNetIsGreat]

I would prefer Budweiser to Fosters though, but yes £5.90 a pint is not the norm. This is some rip off London pub. I paid something silly like that in Dublin once in one pub. Standard prices for lager are coming in at around £3.40 a pint, though I paid £4 last week for a pint of San Miguel (as we were barred from the Sam Smith pub, with prices at about £2.30 a pint). Bitter is around the £3 mark. This is one of the reasons the pub trade is struggling though because you can get much better value in off-licences and the supermarkets, especially if you are only drinking bottles. Of course one of my hobbies is visiting nice country pubs so I don't mind paying, especially for good beers or top continental lagers like Warsteiner if you are lucky enough to find it. That's usually about £4 a pint. So I guess looking at the exchange rate, average prices for a pint would work out somewhere between the $5-5.50 mark for you. This I guess is rip off Britain time again.

I'm currently drinking lagers mostly, as it is summer I often drink more lagers. San Miguel or Stella, but also still drinking good ale for the quality. I'm off out tonight for a meal and will be drinking good ale. Just me and the wife, no kids, before anyone asks. Really difficult though as we are caught between the slightly snobby pub (the one mentioned above somewhere) or the slightly chavy pub. Going to try the snobby pub again, but not a good experience last time and they also ran out of beer! Only bottles left?? If this is the case tonight I'm walking straight out of the pub in disgust and that will be another one I'm barring myself from permanently.

Ha, ha, I like the story about the seated away from kids and the waitresses response and understanding when you said you were a teacher.

I've had postings back from a solicitor who confirms that it is legal to 'ban the pram' but it is on slightly dodgy ground. I'll copy and paste some of his response if I can get permission to do if anyone is interested.

[LitNetIsGreat]

OK, I have response from a legal expert on the issue, a solicitor I think, which is as follows in case anyone was interested in the factual basis of this:

The Equality Act applies to all service providers, and despite the fact that you can call it a public house, or whatever else, pubs are service providers. Shops fall into that category, even law firms.

As I mentioned, you can't discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic. It's an objective test for both whether you have discriminated, and whether it was justified. You still can discriminate, but you need to be sure you can justify it.

In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok.

To bar, for example, anyone Indian, would of course be wrong, and as it should be, illegal.

Someone mentioned the guest house issue, and the couple not allowing gay couples to stay.

That was always going to be a difficult case, as you've two protected characteristics, religion and sexuality, effectively squaring up to each other. As a Court, do you risk upsetting the religious or the gay communities more? I'm glad I didn't have to decide that one, although I'd have favoured the gay community, not being religious (although I'm not gay either, but strongly in favour of gay rights).

You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, but, as before, it would come down to justification.

Summary - you can discriminate against people, but make sure you have a very good reason if you plan to do it!

So this is legal, but on slightly, very slightly maybe, dodgy ground.

---

I went out tonight to the 'snobby' pub but when we got there it was closed until Tuesday, with a new landlord moving in!!! Great stuff! They offered us free drinks but we had to leave for the other pub as we were starving. That's a promising sign though. The other pub which I had labelled 'chavy' was not at all on this occasion, very good and great food. The pub after that was OK too. Some children eating or sat in both and not an issue at all. One or two sat quietly in the corner having a meal or sat outside in the garden, not a problem at all, never even heard them, can't see where there is a problem here to be honest; a lot of fuss about nothing.

[stlukesguild]

I thought you and Germany were part of the EU. Shouldn't you be getting Warsteiner for less than me? Actually, it's quite easy to find here... and sells for something like $8 for a case of six bottles. I have little experience with it. I tend to lean toward stouts and other dark beers...







-Brazilian... haven't had it for years...





wheat beers...







and Belgian or Belgian-style ales.



There are also some odd ones I like:



I must say that its easier than ever to find good beer here as it seems Americans are acquiring a taste for it. Part of this is due to the start up of a lot of small or micro-breweries which often have a restaurant connected.

[Emil Miller]

There are a number of aspects to beer drinking that are sometimes overlooked by the drinker but are nonetheless interesting.
Solitary drinkers may prefer to drink at home and avoid the increasing discomfort of drinking in pubs which, since the abolition of separate bars in the 1960s, means that an anarchic mess has replaced the choice of different bars for different temperaments. This system operated on the price principal i.e. the quieter bars were more expensive (more exclusive and less inclusive/intrusive) and was the civilised way of dealing with a disparate clientele. Put more simply, all the noisy wankers were confined to the public bars while those of a quieter disposition used the saloon or lounge bars.
It was then discovered by the large brewers, who owned many of the pubs, that if they converted their establishments into a single bar and installed pop music, they could pack in the aforementioned wankers and sell them coloured water. This eventually led to the rise of C.A.M.R.A (Campaign For Real Ale) and the start up of small independent brewers who actually made and sold real beer. While this brought about the well-deserved demise of Watney's, one of the largest purveyors of cats piss, and the restoration of decent beer, the damage has been done and the single bar and pop music remain. Despite these unnecessary conditions, draught beer is superior in many people's opinion to the bottled variety and a pub is a must for those who prefer their beer from the pump.

The problem with micro breweries is that nowadays some of the people engaged in beer production appear not to know what they are doing and there are some really awful beers, often exhibited as guest ales in pubs, that are best avoided: although without actually drinking them, it isn't possible to tell whether they are drinkable or not. In this context it's probably better to ignore those with names like Old Tosser, Winter Willy Warmer or similar artfully contrived designations.

As for lagers, where the majority of pump beers in the UK are made under licence from their foreign parent companies, there is little difference between them and while most are drinkable some are definitely not. Those produced by conglomerates such as Allied Breweries for the UK market are fizzy non-entities that can safely be given to women and children but are otherwise best avoided. My own preference is for Leffe which, as far as I know, is brewed specifically in Belgium and exported to the UK for both draught and bottled drinking. It's expensive but so superior to the UK brewed lagers that it's well worth the cost.

I have no experience of dark beers even though Guinness is a big deal in the UK and its followers swear by it. I've been told that it has a propensity to increase the waistline more noticeably than other beers and on that score alone I stay away from it; Falstaffian waistlines are not my thing.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Some nice looking beers there and a few familiar friends - I'm now gagging for a beer! Yes part of the EU but that doesn't stop us getting shafted with tax, which is I guess why we are paying more for alcohol than in a lot of places due to the tax whacked on it. Cigarettes and tobacco is even worse I think.

I don't mind darker beers and stouts but I'm more likely to have those in the winter, although a Hobgoblin went down well the other night. If I'm really thirsty and its hot I'll go for lager first then beers later perhaps. I've just bought a pack of beer for tonight, though perhaps I'll go a little easier as I can't be drinking 5 or 6 pints every night.

Yes Leffe is a good drink. I wouldn't class it as a lager though, its more of a light beer and yes it is only brewed in Belgium unless things have changed recently, but I don't think so. In pubs they should serve you with in neither in half pints or pints but in its own 330ml glass, technically speaking. The vast majority of Belgian beers are served in 330ml glasses. You should be able to just ask for a Leffe and they should automatically give you a 330ml serving. Drinking Leffe by the pint is a little bit like asking for a pint of wine, though of course it is up to you. They shouldn't be serving you with Leffe in ordinary glasses unless you ask for it. You are well within your rights to refuse Belgian beer if it not in the correct glass if you want.

Most beers are generally better from the pump if it is kept in good condition. I tend to know where I can get a consistently good pint from these days and tend to stick to the beers that I know are good. For example if I fancy a good pint or two of Black Sheep I know which pub to go to to get a consistently good Black Sheep. Or if I want some good Belgian Ales I know the best place to go for that, etc, etc. I could take you to two different pubs and have hand pulled Black Sheep, one of them will be a fantastic pint, the other very ordinary and watery, both Black Sheep, both hand pull, so the condition they are kept in is very important. One tip is to look out for the blue 'Cask Marque' badge on top of a hand-pull (http://www.cask-marque.co.uk/find-re...th-cask-marque). In my experience this badge is an almost guarantee of a well kept pint, at least I don't think I have had a bad one when I've seen this mark.

Some bottled beer can be equally good though, if they have fermentation still in the bottle. Most of the Belgian beers are made for the bottle and still have sediment in the bottle. When a barman pours you one of those quality Belgian Trappist brews above, say the Westmalle or Rochfort, Chimay, Orvel, La Trappe or that Achel (I wonder if the other bottle there is the legendary Westvleteren http://www.sintsixtus.be/eng/brouwerij.htm, I had read that they had started a small export to the US) as well as serving you in the correct glass, they should also ask you if you want the sediment in the glass. I think it is supposed to alter the drink but to be honest I've never noticed the difference. If you can get hold of a Westvleterent brew you have to try it as it used to be very rare and only available via prior appointment direct from the Abbey itself. I don't know if the US export is any different from the stuff they sell at the gates or not I've no idea, but it is not available here. It's a dark beer like the Rochfort ones, but I imagine it would be virtually impossible to get hold of the US export even as production of it is very small.

Yes I think Guinness is pretty high up on the calorie intake, a good job perhaps that I don't drink much of it during the heavier drinking season or I would have to do even more biking and tennis to try to burn it off and I'm already knackered and aching all over.

Edit: actually looking at my Leffe glass it is a half pint, so I don't know whether they serve Leffe in half pints instead of 330ml or whether I've got a smaller glass at home. Probably they do serve it in half pints but most Belgium servings are 330ml. I can feel a trip to the Dev Cat Belgian beer section to do some research in the coming week.

[Emil Miller]

Yes Leffe is a good drink. I wouldn't class it as a lager though, its more of a light beer and yes it is only brewed in Belgium unless things have changed recently, but I don't think so. In pubs they should serve you with in neither in half pints or pints but in its own 330ml glass, technically speaking. The vast majority of Belgian beers are served in 330ml glasses. You should be able to just ask for a Leffe and they should automatically give you a 330ml serving. Drinking Leffe by the pint is a little bit like asking for a pint of wine, though of course it is up to you. They shouldn't be serving you with Leffe in ordinary glasses unless you ask for it. You are well within your rights to refuse Belgian beer if it not in the correct glass if you want.

Most beers are generally better from the pump if it is kept in good condition. I tend to know where I can get a consistently good pint from these days and tend to stick to the beers that I know are good. For example if I fancy a good pint or two of Black Sheep I know which pub to go to to get a consistently good Black Sheep. Or if I want some good Belgian Ales I know the best place to go for that, etc, etc. I could take you to two different pubs and have hand pulled Black Sheep, one of them will be a fantastic pint, the other very ordinary and watery, both Black Sheep, both hand pull, so the condition they are kept in is very important. One tip is to look out for the blue 'Cask Marque' badge on top of a hand-pull (http://www.cask-marque.co.uk/find-re...th-cask-marque). In my experience this badge is an almost guarantee of a well kept pint, at least I don't think I have had a bad one when I've seen this mark.


Yes I think Guinness is pretty high up on the calorie intake, a good job perhaps that I don't drink much of it during the heavier drinking season or I would have to do even more biking and tennis to try to burn it off and I'm already knackered and aching all over.

Edit: actually looking at my Leffe glass it is a half pint, so I don't know whether they serve Leffe in half pints instead of 330ml or whether I've got a smaller glass at home. Probably they do serve it in half pints but most Belgium servings are 330ml. I can feel a trip to the Dev Cat Belgian beer section to do some research in the coming week.

There are some places in which bottled Leffe is served in the appropriate glass and others where it's not but if it's from the pump, I doubt that it will be served in a 330ml glass. The main thing is being able to get it anyway. I have known a few instances where it's been installed as bottled or draught and removed shortly thereafter because many people won't pay the asking price.

The correct keeping of ale is important because, as you point out, it can taste very different according to how it's handled. I have occasionally noticed the blue cask mark but not very often and it's possible to find two pubs within close proximity where the same brand is as different as chalk from cheese. This has nothing to do with the class of establishment as I know one place where the customers make your average Wetherspoons clientele look like a Buckingham palace garden party but the draught Fullers ESB is superb.

You have my sympathy regarding the physical trials of keeping in trim during this drinking weather. Two of days ago I went on a country walk that took in a couple of killer hills and long stretches on the flat that left me walking on auto pilot by the end. Ironically, there were three pubs en route and I stopped off for a pint at each one but I resisted the fourth, located close to the station, as I had a bottle of Rosé d'Anjou waiting at home.

[papayahed]

In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok.

huh. Seems like I may have heard that before.

[cacian]

I thought the whole idea of a pub is that people felt lonely hence the pub. a place to drink and socialise ie meet people drunk or no drunk.
more and more people drink on their own that is because loneliness consumes them and not the other way around.
they drink because they are lonely or on their own. if you take the pubs out, the one place where people meet, then you end up making for an alcoholic nation. solitary drinking is as a result of pub closures smoking ban and other reasons.
off licences are also a hazard and one of the reasons people drink on their own.
the amount of shops selling alcohol is mounting and that teaches people to stay at home and drink.
supermarkets sell the biggest amount of alcohol because they make for the whole range of alcoholic beverages. alco pops is another hazard.
it is also becoming apparent that more and more people are drinking in the streets.
you can tell by the amount of cans being thrown in streets/parks/open space areas. it is becoming a concern. mass produced alcoholic cans cheap manufactured booze if you like is sold 24/7.