Pub licensing and discrimination

[Lokasenna]

I'm pretty sure that hetrosexuals are allowed in gay bars. I can't say I'm an expert on gay bars but I'm 99.9% certain this is not an issue.

In my undergraduate days I used to frequent the local gay bar quite often, mostly because a couple of my friends in the group I used to do most of my socialising with were gay and whenever the question was posed of where we wanted to go out for an evening they would chime in with the local LGBT wateringhole. It was quite a nice bar, so I didn't mind - and apart from getting hit on a few times and having to politely decline, there was no other reference to my heterosexuality.

I'm not sure about prams - I wonder whether they might constitute a tripping hazard? They are quite bulky, and whilst they are a useful tool for parents they are not perhaps quite as essential to daily existence as a wheelchair is to an invalid?

I think Luke has a point about respect for other people. I was having lunch in the pub a few weeks ago, and the child at the next table was screaming its head off - the parents apparently having decided to ignore it until it got over its hissy fit. Whilst the validity of this as a parenting tactic is up for debate, it is nevertheless a rather antisocial thing to do with regard to the other patrons - many of whom were presumably there to enjoy a quiet pub lunch with friends. If I had been the parent, I would have been mortified with embarassment - at the very least, I would have taken the child outside in an attempt to calm it down.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I haven't got an issue with landlords banning children from their pub (as is the law) as it is up to them on what type of pub atmosphere they want to create, whether it is family friendly or more catered for adults. I would say that the vast majority of pubs in the UK do allow children, especially in the day and especially where they serve food. Lesser so at night but a ban on children completely, I don't know maybe 1 in 8 or 9 pubs? But a "ban on the pram" I still find totally bizarre and unacceptable.

I would certainly be annoyed though if restaurants started banning children or cafes etc, for where are families supposed to eat out in the day?

As you have pointed out any problems with annoying children lies at the hands of the parents but not all parents are bad! My kids behave extremely well whenever we go out for a meal, for example, if they didn't I wouldn't take them. They will always be plenty of space for pubs/bars/restaurants that cater for different people so I don't see any need for a blanket ban. Of course if you blanket ban families from pubs/bars/restaurants etc then what comes next public transport, museums, churches, libraries?

On the point of loud music in homes, I'm sure there is a loophole here in the UK because people are getting away with this here as the law is just not on the side of the law abiding citizen. Two house parties here last week with bumping 'music' and shouting and screaming, swearing, one went on while 11.30pm the other while 2.30am all of course within built up residential areas - people with kids, people having to get up for works etc. The law for stopping this sort of thing is a joke. Police are not interested as they say it is a council issue but to get this stopped if it becomes a weekly or even almost daily thing is a very lengthy process and can take 6 months or a year to stop or limit. Neighbours need to provide reams of evidence - dates and times when the noise occurs and the nature of it and then maybe the council will confiscate a stereo. Not so if a public house allows noise beyond it's licensing times as these can be quickly shut down temporary or permanently.

This was the case in one pub I tired to get access to last week but I wasn't served, as the landlord ignored me repeatedly. I gathered that the pub was very insular and that I was a new face and so wasn't welcome (I have since read about it). Maybe the tennis racket was an issue too, who knows? Of course the sign outside said "the friendliest pub in *** - FACT!" What was just missing from the front of it was "No new faces or people with tennis rackets."

I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

I think I have seen another glimpse of the future that I just don't like.

I'm not sure about prams - I wonder whether they might constitute a tripping hazard? They are quite bulky, and whilst they are a useful tool for parents they are not perhaps quite as essential to daily existence as a wheelchair is to an invalid?

Possibly, but the six month old needs the pram as much as a disabled person and the pram can be folded down.

[Hawkman]

.

I'm fine with landlords saying no children in pubs but to say "strictly no prams" I thought was pretty anal and I wouldn't go in the pub on principle, for me it is not at all far away from saying 'no wheelchairs' or 'no shopping baskets' 'no big bags' pretty pathetic I thought.

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend."

Unbelievable!

In the UK it would actually be illegal to discriminate against people in wheelchairs. Anyone offering a public service is required to take "reasonable steps" to accommodate disabled access. (I've never really been sure what is actually meant by "disabled access" as the words would seem to suggest that all the doorways should be bricked up). Likewise with disabled parking bays. It's easy to disable a parking bay, you just park in it. That way no one else can, unless they own a tank.

The law also requires that there is sufficient thoroughfare in aisles, etc. within the premises. This is not just an accessibility prescription, but also a health and safety issue. I'm not quite sure what you, or the landlord, meant by "prams" either. In my day a perambulator was an enormous coach-built thing with four wheels that made excellent go-cart running gear. Was he including pushchairs under the same heading? Then again, modern pushchairs can be ridiculously oversized contraptions, with configurations in double, triple or even quadruple seating arrangements, much larger than wheelchairs and almost impossible to manoeuvre. Some of these can't even get through doors, unless they're large enough to allow the passage of a passing Zeppelin. Were these things to be littered around in a pub, the wheelchair users wouldn't be able to get by them.

The ban on the contraption is not a ban on the child. You just leave the conveyance outside. You don't drive into your pub, do you? Drive-Inns: the motorist's pubs. Now there's an idea You don't even have to get out of your car!

[LitNetIsGreat]

In the UK it would actually be illegal to discriminate against people in wheelchairs. Anyone offering a public service is required to take "reasonable steps" to accommodate disabled access. (I've never really been sure what is actually meant by "disabled access" as the words would seem to suggest that all the doorways should be bricked up). Likewise with disabled parking bays. It's easy to disable a parking bay, you just park in it. That way no one else can, unless they own a tank.

The law also requires that there is sufficient thoroughfare in aisles, etc. within the premises. This is not just an accessibility prescription, but also a health and safety issue. I'm not quite sure what you, or the landlord, meant by "prams" either. In my day a perambulator was an enormous coach-built thing with four wheels that made excellent go-cart running gear. Was he including pushchairs under the same heading? Then again, modern pushchairs can be ridiculously oversized contraptions, with configurations in double, triple or even quadruple seating arrangements, much larger than wheelchairs and almost impossible to manoeuvre. Some of these can't even get through doors, unless they're large enough to allow the passage of a passing Zeppelin. Were these things to be littered around in a pub, the wheelchair users wouldn't be able to get by them.

The ban on the contraption is not a ban on the child. You just leave the conveyance outside. You don't drive into your pub, do you? Drive-Inns: the motorist's pubs. Now there's an idea You don't even have to get out of your car!

Right yes so it is illegal to ban wheelchairs. But nothing about prams. What was meant by 'pram' by the way was an umbrella term for all those devices, pushchairs, buggies etc. Most parents have fold down buggies so size is generally not an issue though you can get larger ones. The ban was just on the lot of them though, so a single folding buggy wasn't allowed, but a triple size wheel chair or large shopping bag, camping rucksacks (quite a few walkers around) were. So I clearly read this as a ban on younger children, as a way of saying (and when you infer from the sign - Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend) I translate as something like: We don't like children in the pub but we can't turn down the trade as we are close to a funfair, so children allowed grudgingly to a certain degree. However, we don't like screaming babies so none of those and we can live with losing that portion of the market.

[Emil Miller]

I'm at one with St.Lukes on this issue as I don't think it right that people should take children into pubs. However, there have been some interesting points made to the thread.

I think it would be as well to put oneself into the publican's shoes. When he receives complaints from clients, what is he supposed to do? obviously he can't ignore them at the expense of losing his regular trade. Yesterday I was in a pub which was full of the kind of derelicts one might find in a William Faulkner novel, simply because I wanted to try a beer that isn't readily available elsewhere. Moreover, in the part of London where I live, there have been two killings in different pubs: one of them because of a dispute over a game of dominoes, surely these are not the kind of places that one would take children, despite the fact that they are so-called 'family friendly' establishments.

It's interesting that homosexual bars have been mentioned, as only last week I discovered through the internet that a pub in central London that for many years had a clientele that was predominantly heterosexual, is now billed as a 'gay bar' and one commentator on the pub's performance was given to say that he didn't like the door keeper's attitude when he was refused entrance for not being really gay. He said the comment was 'most hurtful'. (I'm not joking).

As for the 'No obese people' option, if they did that, English pubs would lose 90% of their business.

When it comes to restaurants, children are usually allowed but there is a duty on the management to ensure that they are well behaved. I usually eat in Chinese restaurants where there are often children with their parents but I have never experienced any bad behaviour and have even gone in with a friend's children myself on occasion without any problem.

[Hawkman]

Right yes so it is illegal to ban wheelchairs. But nothing about prams. What was meant by 'pram' by the way was an umbrella term for all those devices, pushchairs, buggies etc. Most parents have fold down buggies so size is generally not an issue though you can get larger ones. The ban was just on the lot of them though, so a single folding buggy wasn't allowed, but a triple size wheel chair or large shopping bag, camping rucksacks (quite a few walkers around) were. So I clearly read this as a ban on younger children, as a way of saying (and when you infer from the sign - Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend) I translate as something like: We don't like children in the pub but we can't turn down the trade as we are close to a funfair, so children allowed grudgingly to a certain degree. However, we don't like screaming babies so none of those and we can live with losing that portion of the market.

Well the law only requires that children under 16 be accompanied by an adult in the bar, so I guess this is the publican's choice, but I'd certainly not consider it unusual. Most family oriented pubs have family areas and there's no restriction on the beer garden during the day, assuming there is one.

Quite frankly I'd be appalled if parents with babes in arms were lounging around in pubs after 7pm anyway. The kids should be tucked up at home at this time. What kind of a parent hangs out in a bar after 7pm with their kids? When I was young this just never happened. There's a big difference between grabbing a pub lunch with the family during the afternoon and spending the evening with them in a pub. If one want's to spend the evening in a pub, either alone, or with one's wife or partner, one should get a baby sitter and leave the kids at home. I'm less outraged by the publican's attitude than by the parenting skills of his clientele!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well a blanket ban is a matter of opinion but I think it is unnecessary and of course won’t happen anyway as pubs are a dying trade at the moment even without that.

Of course when I am talking about taking children into pubs I’m talking about select pubs. I wouldn’t go in half of the pubs around, let alone take my kids into them! In fact the number pubs that I would go into are getting smaller and smaller for various reasons. For example one has recently changed the beer and lager to undrinkables so I won’t be going back there unfortunately.

I’m still not sure about the legality of banning prams though. Perhaps I’ll have to conduct some market research and interview a few landlords?

Well the law only requires that children under 16 be accompanied by an adult in the bar, so I guess this is the publican's choice, but I'd certainly not consider it unusual. Most family oriented pubs have family areas and there's no restriction on the beer garden during the day, assuming there is one.

Quite frankly I'd be appalled if parents with babes in arms were lounging around in pubs after 7pm anyway. The kids should be tucked up at home at this time. What kind of a parent hangs out in a bar after 7pm with their kids? When I was young this just never happened. There's a big difference between grabbing a pub lunch with the family during the afternoon and spending the evening with them in a pub. If one want's to spend the evening in a pub, either alone, or with one's wife or partner, one should get a baby sitter and leave the kids at home. I'm less outraged by the publican's attitude than by the parenting skills of his clientele!

Yes I can see that point, but we are talking about a holiday resort, so you would have thought they'd be a more open approach, especially considering the location on the front, by the small funfair. As such there are not many people who go on holiday and are in bed for 7pm, especially if the kids are 10/12 year old etc. There has to be some place that are willing to accommodate families past this time just for a while to unwind, which of course there were, as some pubs are much more welcoming. I would have been much happier if that pub just didn't allow children full-stop or did. I can't be doing with the snide 'no prams' policy which really is just a way to say we don't want any babies or toddlers in the pub at all as we don't like them. Also there was no beer garden so that was not an option, so neither could the pram be left outside. If you had a pram and wanted to go in it was just tough ****.

There are some people with bad attitudes around concerning children, lots of prejudice. For example when we went out for my birthday for a meal in a pub/restaurant. It was a nice quiet pub, actually hardly anyone in at all and we were the only ones eating when we went in. We sat right at the back by the window and my kids were quiet and impeccability behaved throughout as usual in public (why they can't always behave like that in the house I'm not sure). We just had a bite to eat and a quiet drink, probably the kids took a book or a pad of paper something like that though we didn't stay long, just one or two drinks at the most. On the way out my wife heard the snotty remark from one snooty woman "fancy taking kids in the pub on a school night. Disgusting." My kids are 8 and 10 and we left at 6.30pm. I wish that I had heard the comment as I would have had a comment to return as I am losing my patience with crap like that these days.

There is no reason why a sensible approach to children and pubs/restaurants can't work. In other cultures, say Italy and France for example I believe, have a very sensible attitude and a responsible approach to families and pubs/restaurants and as a result far less problems with alcohol. Children can be sensibly educated much more easily if they are not excluded like lepers from social environments and their parents treated like criminals.

[Hawkman]

I can see your argument too, up to a point. Pre-teen kids are more of a problem, and yes, they like funfairs and stuff like that, and times have changed since I was a kid, I admit, though not necessarily for the better. At that age I wasn't allowed to go wandering off on my own in the evening, I'd have had to have an older sibling with me or be accompanied by a parent; the latter definitely being less fun. But if you're on a family holiday, the family would probably be better off doing family things, not going to pubs. Restaurants aren't pubs, and I see no problem with well-behaved adolescents in them. Small children are definitely better off at home in the evening.

The example you cite with the rude woman when you were out grabbing a bite with school-age children at only 6:30 pm, Well, I'm with you all the way there. Another thing to consider is that when I was young, pubs weren't actually nice places to be for kids. They reeked of ciggy smoke and stale beer and people went there to unwind and drink. Posh pubs were fewer and farther between. There was always the lounge bar, of course, and I seem to remember that accompanied older kids could go in there, but the public bars were rather rough.

The trouble with modern life is that the boundaries are blurred. Most pubs these days have to do food, or they won't get the customers. Some can't make up their minds whether they are really restaurants or not, having carveries etc. Ultimately, if you don't like the place, then don't go there, I guess. If it's near a holiday resort there's bound to be something catering to your needs.

[Ecurb]

Yes but birds of feather stick together. We're famously known to gravitate toward groups which we fit into. I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

The problem with this attitude is that it is bigoted. I regularly hear people say, "I don't like kids." Or I hear them say, "I really like kids." Both are forms of prejudice, implying, as they do, that all kids are alike (obviously, the first is nastier, but I find even the second objectionable, in a minor way). Of course if one is a member of a minority group that regularly experiences prejudice from the majority (like obese people, for example), it makes sense that you might want to be around others like yourself.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I have found out that it is perfectly legal to ban prams from pubs in the UK. It is not legal to ban wheelchairs, or ban on racial or sexual grounds but apparently anything else is fair game and perfectly legal.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think when I win the Euro lottery, which is very soon, I'm going to have a lot of fun when I buy all the local pubs an post my own signs, now that I understand the legal position.

Here's one:
No chavs.
No people who say 'LOL.'
No mobile phones.
No people who drink Carling. Please note this pub does not serve Carling as it is ****ing rank.
Welcome all.


Here's another:
No people who constantly talk about work. If you want to come into this pub and talk about work then go and **** off and work.
No ugly people.
No people who don't like strawberries.
The friendliest pub in Yorkshire. Come with a frown, leave with a smile.

And another:
No middle management allowed on the premises at any time.
Supervisors allowed on the premises but must leave before 7pm, and strictly not allowed in the bar area.
People who buy low grade sausages or factory farmed eggs must be accompanied by an adult at all times.
The Welcome Inn - here to offer you a smile.

One more for kicks:
Strictly no fat Sheffield Wednesday burger munchers allowed on the premises at any time.
No bow ties.
No shopping bags with 'Tesco' on the front.
No sun readers.
The Red Lion - voted the best pub in town.

Yes this issue has really pissed me off, and I haven't even had a pram for about five years, but I remember how hard it was.

Another one.
No car drivers who spend more than £3000 on a car.
Absolutely no one who has ever said "I'm glad to be back at work" ever, allowed on the premises at any time, on any occasion - you can **** off.
No people who listen to chav 'gangsa' music.
No people with red socks allowed in the bar area at any time.
No overtly, 'happy' people.
The King's Head - we think of you as family.

I could go on and on but I'll leave it there. What a ****ing country.

[Emil Miller]

You missed out tennis rackets.

I have to agree about Carling, although Fosters is even worse.
I went into a Wetherspoons pub recently because they do Leffe on draught and the barmaid told me that they only sold it in half-pints because of its strength. So I ordered two halves and a pint glass before making my way over to a table from where I could watch the world go by. As I approached the table, I noticed that there was an empty glass and a newspaper left by a former occupant. The glass had a Foster's logo and the newspaper was ( you guessed it ) the Sun. Still, I felt better about it when I had drunk the Leffe.
I hear that Fosters is trying to go up-market with a 'stronger' brew, I suppose that means they use two ears of barley instead of one, but how about this item from somebody's beer blog concerning a pub during the London Olympics:

“We were in a pub in Greenwich the other day where they'd put the price of Foster’s up to £5.90 a pint for the tourists.”

[Volya]

I think when I win the Euro lottery, which is very soon, I'm going to have a lot of fun when I buy all the local pubs an post my own signs, now that I understand the legal position...

...I could go on and on but I'll leave it there. What a ****ing country.

Some of this seems a tad excessive. What's wrong with bow ties :'(

[LitNetIsGreat]

You missed out tennis rackets.

I have to agree about Carling, although Fosters is even worse.
I went into a Wetherspoons pub recently because they do Leffe on draught and the barmaid told me that they only sold it in half-pints because of its strength. So I ordered two halves and a pint glass before making my way over to a table from where I could watch the world go by. As I approached the table, I noticed that there was an empty glass and a newspaper left by a former occupant. The glass had a Foster's logo and the newspaper was ( you guessed it ) the Sun. Still, I felt better about it when I had drunk the Leffe.
I hear that Fosters is trying to go up-market with a 'stronger' brew, I suppose that means they use two ears of barley instead of one, but how about this item from somebody's beer blog concerning a pub during the London Olympics:

“We were in a pub in Greenwich the other day where they'd put the price of Foster’s up to £5.90 a pint for the tourists.”

Yes Foster's is pretty bad as well. Though I have only drank Carling on two occasions and have been physically sick both times so I have to go for Carling on that basis. I'm not talking about drinking a lot either after just one pint or even a half! Whereas if Foster's is very very cold and I hold my nose I can get it down in an absolute emergency. £5.90 Christ, another glimpse of the future I don't like.

Some of this seems a tad excessive. What's wrong with bow ties.

A tad excessive, no, no surely? The 'guv'nor' can do what he likes:

http://dadds-solicitors.co.uk/licens...swer/pram-ban/

[stlukesguild]

I actually don't mind a Fosters from time to time. But then you have to remember that the big beer in the US are absolute diluted pi**-water (Budweiser, etc...). But £5.90 a pint!!? One of the big oil cans only runs a $1.50 or so here and I can't imagine more than $4 or so... unless its in one of those pretentious "sports bars" with 57 TV sets.

Returning to the question of children in restaurants, I have actually requested to be seated away from any children. Not long ago, when Ohio still allowed smoking in restaurants, I was asked for my seating preference (smoking or non). I replied "No children." The waitress looked confused, and asked "You don't like children?" I replied, "I hate children." She continued, "How can you hate children?" to which I answered, "I'm a teacher." Oh... I understand," she replied.

I can understand your position as a Dad, Neely... but my young 'uns are fully grown and after a day working with the Hoodlums I teach I want nothing whatsoever to do with children as I wind down the evening.