From the one you are telling me.Originally Posted by Delta40
Oh so now you've got a basket of supposed writers that should behave in a certain way. Did you get that from another story you were told?
From the one you are telling me.Oh so now you've got a basket of supposed writers that should behave in a certain way. Did you get that from another story you were told?
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
I agree with cacian. Introducing suicide is poor writing. It is distasteful. It has a deus ex machina feel to it when it comes to plot construction. It has a juvenile whining quality about it. It makes one think that the author forgot to take his or her meds. But the main reason is it won't sell. She is giving you good reasons why it won't sell and it is better to pay attention to what people like her are saying than waste your time writing about "deep reality" which is little more than shallow, self-righteous fantasy.
There is no reason to be aggravated by anyone on these forums, but if somebody enjoys getting aggravated, that's fine. Others can watch and be entertained and perhaps incorporate the perceived aggravation into a new story or poem. Theoretically we are all writers here and we are all prompts for other writers.
By the way, I finished writing a story about a suicide last year. It was about a chicken who killed herself by walking up to a dog and letting the dog grab her head in his mouth and spin her around in the air breaking her neck. It's a true story. I'm trying to make sense out of it--and rewrite it, because, frankly, it sucks and I think I owe that chicken better. This thread has helped.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Yep, you're so right. That's exactly how I would characterize Tolstoy and his masterpiece Anna Karenina.
“To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it.”
- Kurt Vonnegut
I agree with practically every other word in your post.
Code Geass is an anime that came out in the last few years, is wildly popular and highly rated by fans and critics alike.
Warning Code Geass Spoilers
I will start by saying I don't really like anime. All I care about is story. CG has an awesome story.
At the end, the MC commits suicide but it's very well done. In context, his suicide was selfless and completed his arc. It was an unfotgettable ending, unexpected and Id consider it great writing.
The show sold BIG. Multiple movies and a new series came from it.
I don't think it's fair to say one subject matter is bad writing. It's not what it's about, it's how it's about it.
While the truncheon may be used
in lieu of conversation,
words will always retain their power.
Words offer the means to meaning,
and for those who will listen,
the enunciation of truth.
Shakespeare portrayed a lot of suicides. Flaubert's masterpiece ends in suicide. As does Tolstoy's. As does Victor Hugo's. Goethe is another. Doestoevsky. Woolf. The list goes on and on.
It is laughable to question suicide's portrayal in literature when the greatest writers of all time have featured it prominently in their masterworks.
Last edited by Darcy88; 04-30-2013 at 12:52 AM.
“To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it.”
- Kurt Vonnegut
Well of course these writers did what they knew best and see there is that one similarity running through all of their work which stands out like a sore thumb. It makes them all in effect of the same calibre and not at all different from each other. They all chose suicide as a theme to their stories. It must tell you something no? and with all the greatest respect to these greatest writers and no one is questioning their greatness that is definetely not the point of this thread.
You mention the word 'laughable' and I think it is rather laughable that no one ever question literature and what it present us with and that is the greatest dilemma. One writes one reads and one also one must think aboutwhat one is reading and writing.
It is ironic because we question rules and laws and put safety barriers to stop people from offending and we also inspect our food and bring health and safety measures and yet no one object to literature that incorporate violence child abuse and suicide. There is a double edge sword there stand a hypocrisy and if we think we are to ever conduct a life in a normal safe environment then we are all fooling ourselves.
Last edited by cacian; 04-30-2013 at 03:03 AM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
Not to mention worthless scribblings like Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment and The Possessed, and Hugo's Toilers of the Sea.
I think all idyllic literature should be banned. It creates an unrealistic standard and leads to suicide and terrorism.
Literature is supposed to be like real life, and real life is far from idyllic, but cus of idyllic literature, many will think the universe is idyllic.
When that idyllicism is face on face with reality, things implode inside the mind. Bolts unbolt. Hinges...unhinge.
It's truly unpalatable that idyllic literature is written in my opinion.
While the truncheon may be used
in lieu of conversation,
words will always retain their power.
Words offer the means to meaning,
and for those who will listen,
the enunciation of truth.
However we sometimes want to read something enabling us to forget about the real life.
About banning I think you are again misunderstanding the point of this thread.
I am not suggesting banning it I am putting to you as I feel about it and I am trying to say that perhaps suicide in literature is not the right way to go about story and writing in generals because readers are different and will react differently to different subjects.
I picked suicide because that was the most obvious thing to do. The reason is that it is a real tragedy and one must tread carefully when associating fictional character with it. To write a book for all to read and and assume that every reader is going to reflect in the same way as everyone else a cliché.
The other thing is you mention that I argue for the sake arguing that is simply untrue. This is not an argument but something I thought very carefully about. It has many times crossed my mind that it was not right. It felt wrong to me to read stories with characters committing suicide especially in a manner that advocated heroism or just something done as a mean to get rid off a character. We do not do that in real life get rid off people we decide we do not want to be friend with and so I started this thread.
The point of a discussion is to talk about issues and hear everyone else's thoughts and reactions regardless of whether we like what we hear or disagree for that matter. We could never possibly all agree or disagree all at the same time because we are all different.
So whilst we tolerate each other we must also be able to express opinions different from other or similar. That is the essence of any discussion. Arguments are justified when it comes to are very important to our lives. That is how I conduct life by communicating and literature is one the greatest forum for ideas and intellectual development.
Last edited by cacian; 04-30-2013 at 05:19 AM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
So what are you actually saying? That literature should not deal with life's toughest realities? That suicide, violence, and things painful as child abuse shouldn't be written about? There are plenty of safe sanitized novels out there for one who would rather not delve into the darker corners of human nature. No one is forcing you to read these books.
After 8 pages of this thread I have yet to encounter a rational convincing argument against suicide's portrayal in literature. Suicide works in literature. There are too many masterpieces of fiction which feature it for it to be otherwise. One of my favourite stories in all literature is that of Kirilov in Dostoevsky's novel The Possessed who has philosophically proven to himself that he must end his own life. Would Romeo and Juliet be so powerful a story without that tragic ending? I don't think so. And this holds true for countless great works which contain suicide.
“To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it.”
- Kurt Vonnegut
I think you and cacian should drive off together into the sunset and live happily ever after in your fantasy world.
All this thread has achieved is reveal how shallow you both are.
Maybe all books should carry a government health warning. That seems to be what you are advocating. Shameful behaviour on a supposed 'Literature' forum.
H
About Anna Karenina, I wonder if Tolstoy is using suicide as a punishment for her, giving her what she deserves for her adulterous activity. I was also thinking of Maugham's Rain which portrayed a missionary committing suicide after converting a prostitute and then wanting to have sex with her. Suicide is used in these stories as a way to portray the character negatively, giving the fantasy character a fantasy they deserve. Dante would have just sent them to hell.
In considering this thread, I think suicide can be used in various ways in literature:
1) The person committing suicide is self-righteously punishing others, for example, the 20-something's mommy bothered him and so he takes her gun, kills her and wipes out a class of 5-year-olds in the local school, or the Buddhist monk immolates himself to condemn his political enemy--(this one is amazing, if that's what meditating up the yingyang gets you, I'd want nothing to do with it)--the Muslim with bombs around his waist wants to make sure everyone sees his sacrifice and so he blows up as many kids as he can. All of the stories you see on the news are stories and they do sell, so I guess you're right--I've learned something again--suicide does sell.
2) Suicide is used by the author to condemn the character's action. I already mentioned Maugham and Tolstoy, but this is a self-righteous act as well, except now it is the author's self-righteousness against the character.
3) Suicide can be the result of grief and here I think of Sophie's Choice.
4) Suicide can be used as a way to get rid of the elderly and the terminally ill. I still can't remember the name of the Canadian movie that featured this as an ending.
5) Suicide can be the side-effect of an act of heroism. Here I am thinking of Sucker Punch which I saw recently. Quite entertaining, but I don't count this as "suicide".
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Cacian has provided me with many valuable direct prompts both in the poetry games sections and in the threads she has started.
Others provide me with indirect prompts that I pick up from the way they behave.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
I normally get bored with graphic novels, but I'll see if I can find Code Geass in the library. I assume it is like real life. I did like Victoria Roberts' After the Fall.
As far as not liking idyllic literature, did you see Sucker Punch?
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
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