Why topics related to sex are called obscene, vulgar?

[osho]

I often wonder why people refrain from discussing sex. And this is more so in our country though less in degree in the west and more marked in the Islamic world. Is it due to our cultural background or social setups?

Is it wrong to discuss it the way we do discuss our food habits, tastes? Why has it been limited to our private chambers or to a few whispers? Why should not be it discussion in public openly, explicitly and unreservedly the way we discuss politics, economics, cocktails and the rest of everyday chitchat?

Maybe this is a philosophical or ethical issue but digging into the very depth of it or the source of it all we arrive at it religious obligations and it was imposed on us at some epochs in history.

Even books of literature if considered steamy are undervalued in many societies. Conservatism wins through our mindscapes even we are now living in the twenty first century. Things related to sex are squeezed into pornographic books and magazines. Even sex is discusses in schools and universities but only summarily and inconclusively.
I do not want to talk much since your ideas and opinions on this may differ.

[Shaman_Raman]

Not a bad thread to start. Personally, I think it's rooted in some secret embarrassment people have when discussing it. Plus, it's hard to talk about sex without it going obscene, unfortunately. Last weekend, I'm peeing in the men's bathroom at a bar, when the drunk stranger says next to me: "Why do we need women? Just to f$%k them, am I right?" I just shrugged my shoulders, not really wanting to engage with this guy in any manner. But I've met countless guys who talk in this manner, and I don't know whether it's main stream society's fault, or if were by nature a bunch of horny apes.

But how do you mean, comparing it to food habits and tastes? Like to say a group of people should sit around and talk about which position fancies them? Again, I think it's more about just personal embarrassment over religious or ethical ideals.

Final note. 50 Shades of Grey just happened to be one of New York Time's Best Sellers. Now I haven't read it, or intend to read it, but from what I hear and gather it's all about sexual deviancy. One girl I spoke I spoke to about it didn't even care much for it, and she happens to be one of the more perverted people I know! She said it's written like Twilight, except instead of a Vampire having sex with a girl, it's a Sex addict. Point is, apparently people gathered in flocks to buy this book, which tells me there's some kinky book club talks going on right now.

All in all, it's the apple that Adam and Eve love to eat and keep a secret.

(Sorry if I rambled on, I'm a tad bored right now.)

[YesNo]

I suspect people perceive the discussion of sex between two potential sexual partners as a kind of foreplay to actually having sex.

[osho]

I suspect people perceive the discussion of sex between two potential sexual partners as a kind of foreplay to actually having sex.

It is not between two potential sexual partners but in society or in public openly I am talking about.

[cacian]

Sex is almost sexist if you think about it. It is kept that way because our relation to it is twisted. We as human are unable to discociate intimacy with pleasure. Instead of letting sex be as a fact of life and move on to talk much higher important subject we deviate from the essantials of life and indulge in feeling guilty about sex. We concern ourselves with it as to sanction it as taboo and in return sex looks downwards on us as the taboo of all taboos.
Sex is such a deluge of reputations to all strattas of society that it is impossible not to point at it as the naughty steps of all steps.
The sex industry reeks secularism of destitutism and sex is used as a machine to compensate for the lack of it and thus money its benefactor is as the result to it.
In the meantime the masses use it to spend their daily allowances of time left to them to dellude in it in its worst forms ever.

[YesNo]

It is not between two potential sexual partners but in society or in public openly I am talking about.

Many of the movies I have seen, even old ones going back decades, can be considered to be mainly discussions about sex. I just saw Cover Girl last night when going through a collection of Rita Hayworth's films. This was made in the 1940's. It was all a discussion of sex--and rather entertaining in an old sort of way.

However, let's say you are at a party with both men and women in it. Bringing up sex may be interpreted as a invitation to have sex rather than an intellectual or artistic discussion of sex. This is probably why people don't bring it up at work or with their friends. The motivation for discussing it might be misinterpreted.

[osho]

Many of the movies I have seen, even old ones going back decades, can be considered to be mainly discussions about sex. I just saw Cover Girl last night when going through a collection of Rita Hayworth's films. This was made in the 1940's. It was all a discussion of sex--and rather entertaining in an old sort of way.

However, let's say you are at a party with both men and women in it. Bringing up sex may be interpreted as a invitation to have sex rather than an intellectual or artistic discussion of sex. This is probably why people don't bring it up at work or with their friends. The motivation for discussing it might be misinterpreted.

You are true to a certain extent and of course bringing up the topic may lead to a series of arousals. This is because we are going to do in suddenness. In fact if we bring it up for healthy discussions and even if we talk to our children healthily they will be aware of use and misuse. Sex has been a problem today and unhealthy use of it is leading to pedophilia, molestation, rapes and the like.

[cacian]

It is not between two potential sexual partners but in society or in public openly I am talking about.

Well the only discussion about sex in society is about protecting yourself and others as well as contraception. This does not mean it makes any difference to whether people in general comply to it or not.
The other aspects of sex are I would say are rather private but some people offer sex discussion group sessions as therapeutic and sex enhancing. That is if one is more preoccupied about sex rather then getting down to it.
I personally feel that sex is a private matter that could also lead to people treating as a subject to study. I have never heard of a diploma in sexology. Who knows maybe there is and we do not know about it.

[osho]

Well the only discussion about sex in society is about protecting yourself and others as well as contraception. This does not mean it makes any difference to whether people in general comply to it or not.
The other aspects of sex are I would say are rather private but some people offer sex discussion group sessions as therapeutic and sex enhancing. That is if one is more preoccupied about sex rather then getting down to it.
I personally feel that sex is a private matter that could also lead to people treating as a subject to study. I have never heard of a diploma in sexology. Who knows maybe there is and we do not know about it.

The act of it will be a private matter and of course partners are private entities and that cannot be socialized or shared in our civilized world. Maybe in a different civilization or a world with a different value system or cultural setup it could be thing to be publicly or socially shared and I do not want to go further discussing it since I will be singled out here.
The main theme is to discuss it, not perform it since both are two different domains. We talk about crimes without engaging it.

[stlukesguild]

Undoubtedly there are multiple forces at play with regard to our reluctance to discuss sexuality. There are the outside pressures or strictures established by religious institutions and conservative moralists. These are often based upon their own hang-ups... fears... and thoughts that sex is somehow "filthy", "ugly", or "shameful". I agree that there is a degree of embarrassment involved... as there appears to be in many cultures with anything having to do with the body and bodily functions. But there is also something of a sense of decorum... or perhaps a sense of loyalty, fidelity, confidence, or even reverence in keeping private personal details of what transpires between two human beings who care about each other. With regard to artistic expressions of sex... there is certainly a delicate balance between a work of art that celebrates sexuality on a personal level, and a breaking of confidence. Painting... or writing a poetic celebration of the beauty of the human body... or even lovemaking... is one thing. It is something else when it becomes personal. I would think the same is true of discussions of sex. Going on in public about a lover's physical attributes, his or her stamina, your own abilities, or how much cxxk or pxxxy you've gotten does indeed come off as vulgar and tasteless braggadocio... something that one cannot imagine one would do when speaking of someone one truly loves... or even just cares about.

Again, I would quote a few "artists":

"Flesh was the reason oil paint was invented."
-Willem DeKooning

"A young mistress is better than an old master."
-H.G. Wells

"The nakedness of woman is the work of god."
-William Blake

"People say I think too much about women, yet after all, what
is there more important to think about?"
-Rodin

"The most simple subjects are eternal. The nude woman, whether
she emerges from the waves of the sea, or from her bed, is
Venus... and one's imagination cannot conceive anything better."
-Renoir

"If it wasn't for the female breast I don't think I'd have been an artist!"
- Renoir

"I have unbounded admiration for the nude. I worship it like a god."
- Auguste Rodin

"Art can never exist without Naked Beauty display’d."
- William Blake

"If I have chosen the female form in particular, it is because beauty has been debased and exploited in our sensual twentieth century. We seem to have a need to turn innocent nature into evil ugliness by the twist of the mind. Woman has been target of much that is sordid and cheap, especially in photography. To raise, to elevate, to endorse with timeless reverence the image of woman, has been my mission – the reason for my work."
-Ruth Bernhart (Photographer)

“Sex and art are the same thing”
– Picasso

“But there are things that happen between a man and a woman in the dark… that sort of make everything else seem… unimportant.”
- Tennessee Williams

"I am still of opinion that only two topics can be of the least interest to a serious and studious mood - sex and the dead."
- William Butler Yeats


Again... it seems that more than a few artists disagree with cacian's suggestion we should let "sex be as a fact of life and move on to talk much higher important subject(s)." As Yeats suggested, Sex and Death... Freud's Eros & Thanatos... the dual human basic instincts... remain central to art. The great art historian, Sir Kenneth Clark, suggested that the erotic element of art was so pervasive simply as a result of the fact that the desire to grasp and be united with another human body is so fundamental and a part of human nature. Many of our most profound and emotional experiences are erotic in nature. It thus seems a bit ingenuous to suggest that sex could ever be simply dismissed as a basic fact of life... perhaps as nothing more than defecating... or that there are so many "higher and more important subjects.

[cacian]

The act of it will be a private matter and of course partners are private entities and that cannot be socialized or shared in our civilized world. Maybe in a different civilization or a world with a different value system or cultural setup it could be thing to be publicly or socially shared and I do not want to go further discussing it since I will be singled out here.
The main theme is to discuss it, not perform it since both are two different domains. We talk about crimes without engaging it.

I am not so sure we talk about crimes without engaging in them. Films and television is made around crimes. Mafia films glorified for us to watch.
It is what we call the slap on the fact let's talk about crime and then watch as an entertaining business.
Affairs and dramas around killing and violence is what makes entertaining exciting and lucrative.
I remember talking to someone about rape in pornography. I suggested it was not a good idea to portray rape in pornography his point was well why not? One must think about all tastes and interest. He defended rape in pornography as something perfectly ok because it should cater for those who like the idea.
Pornography talks sex but in more unrealistic situations that eventually turn out to be real because subconscially people would want to act on them.
In a way that is sex watched rather then talked about

Again... it seems that more than a few artists disagree with cacian's suggestion we should let "sex be as a fact of life and move on to talk much higher important subject(s)." As Yeats suggested, Sex and Death... Freud's Eros & Thanatos... the dual human basic instincts... remain central to art. The great art historian, Sir Kenneth Clark, suggested that the erotic element of art was so pervasive simply as a result of the fact that the desire to grasp and be united with another human body is so fundamental and a part of human nature. Many of our most profound and emotional experiences are erotic in nature. It thus seems a bit ingenuous to suggest that sex could ever be simply dismissed as a basic fact of life... perhaps as nothing more than defecating... or that there are so many "higher and more important subjects.

I feel I have to describe sex as just another fact of life because it simply is.
Sex to me represents the norms and should be regarded as another other normal subject. This to allow to people get on with it rather then use to their detriment or not.
Sex in the act rather then a solitude of envy. I would rather get on with it then talk about it. Sex without the act is not sex it is lust. Why lust over something when one can just get on with it. I mean one goes to sweet shops to buy sweets and not to stare and wonder about it.
Sex in art however is not my cup of tea simply because I do not understand in that context. I consider art as something that is not within our reach something we do not always capture in real life and therefore I look into art to represent it to a magnified perfection.
And yes there are much more urgent matter to talk about then spend hours looking at something that I already know. I also do not go to sex classes and learn about the mechanism of the act I just do it and it stops there. Sex however has other benefits and one of them is procreation. That is one reason why sex should just be another way of life because it allows for some to go forth and multiply.
OF course that is my views on it and you have different views about it and so yes people are different about different things.

[osho]

I am not so sure we talk about crimes without engaging in them. Films and television is made around crimes. Mafia films glorified for us to watch.
It is what we call the slap on the fact let's talk about crime and then watch as an entertaining business.
Affairs and dramas around killing and violence is what makes entertaining exciting and lucrative.
I remember talking to someone about rape in pornography. I suggested it was not a good idea to portray rape in pornography his point was well why not? One must think about all tastes and interest. He defended rape in pornography as something perfectly ok because it should cater for those who like the idea.
Pornography talks sex but in more unrealistic situations that eventually turn out to be real because subconscially people would want to act on them.
In a way that is sex watched rather then talked about

Pornographic things are to create arousal and all I am talking about creating awareness, social awareness in family, society. Let us take it without attaching it to vulgarity. In fact it is a matter of beauty, creativity and awareness. Let it stop sex-related perversions. This is a spiritually enlightening act and in the east temples are teeming with acts of sex. The ancients were were aware of the importance of sex-education and we the moderns are not,

[cacian]

Pornographic things are to create arousal and all I am talking about creating awareness, social awareness in family, society. Let us take it without attaching it to vulgarity. In fact it is a matter of beauty, creativity and awareness. Let it stop sex-related perversions. This is a spiritually enlightening act and in the east temples are teeming with acts of sex. The ancients were were aware of the importance of sex-education and we the moderns are not,

Pornography arousal absolutely but that leads me to think aren't people aroused already by the presence of their sexual partner?
Is the idea of sex not enough to arouse? I do not know.
I agree sexual awareness is important but then in what way do you wish to aware it?
I personally think that the more we look at something too closely the more we lose its meaning and sway about it but then I could be wrong. This is speculations.

[osho]

Pornography arousal absolutely but that leads me to think aren't people aroused already by the presence of their sexual partner?
Is the idea of sex not enough to arouse? I do not know.
I agree sexual awareness is important but then in what way do you wish to aware it?
I personally think that the more we look at something too closely the more we lose its meaning and sway about it but then I could be wrong. This is speculations.

The point is it is not a thing of ugliness and it is as pure as a rose and as bright as a star and we have through our conditioned minds are clouding it

[stlukesguild]

I feel I have to describe sex as just another fact of life because it simply is. Sex to me represents the norms and should be regarded as another other normal subject.

Birth, death, war, rape, murder, illness, etc... are all also "just another fact of life"... but like sex and love (Eros) they trigger intense responses in most human human beings. The fact that any of these subjects are "normal"... are a fact of our world and existence as we know it... does not necessarily reduce the subject to something about which we can be blase.

I would rather get on with it then talk about it.

Who wouldn't? What does that have to do with the merits of talking about sex/eros or creating art that deals with sex/eros?

Sex without the act is not sex it is lust. Why lust over something when one can just get on with it. I mean one goes to sweet shops to buy sweets and not to stare and wonder about it.

So might we not apply this to nearly the whole of art? Why create poems about love... lusting over love... when when could go out and find the real thing? Why make paintings like this:















Are you suggesting that art with food as the subject matter is pointless because you would rather eat the real thing?

What about paintings of food... and sex?:







Could I not apply you idea to any subject matter? Why make paintings or write poems or compose works of music about nature and the landscape, when I could go out into the landscape in person?

Sex in art however is not my cup of tea simply because I do not understand in that context. I consider art as something that is not within our reach something we do not always capture in real life and therefore I look into art to represent it to a magnified perfection.

Perhaps this is the problem... you have your own biases or limitation as to what is or is not the valid or worthy subject matter for art.

And yes there are much more urgent matter to talk about then spend hours looking at something that I already know.

I highly suspect you may know a lot less than you claim. Again... is the role of art solely to represent the unfamiliar, the exceptional... or the fictional?