Is there a 'greatest' poet?

[Adolescent09]

Is there any room for modern poetry?-though, I know we have an affinity for the past on Litnet

I personally do not like the writings of most poets that have cropped up in the 21st century. Famous, so-called 'good' writers these days lack austerity. I believe many 21st century poets would be the subject of parody for pre-21st century poets.

This, of course, does not mean that I do not find the occasional 'diamond in the trough'.

[mortalterror]

Specially considering what makes Shakespeare impressive is not that he reached a peak that no other writer ever reached, but the number of times he did it. Even if we remove all and leave only Hamlet, much of his impact would be diminished, just like his sonnets are just one of the best but not only one collection of lyrical poetry in english or another language. Shakespeare needs his many plays to be Shakespeare.

Good call, JCamilo. Returning to my football analogy, Shakespeare would have the most championship rings. There are guys just as good who only got to the show once or twice, but when they did it was memorable.

[osho]

Why mostly we are English centric? Are not there great poets in France, Germany, India, China and in other nations? It is Americanism and sheer Americanism eclipses the rest of poets from other languages and cultures? Who can ignore if there are really sensible or well read critics here of world literature to de-list ancient Chinese poets, Tao, Sufi poets like Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat? Today Americanism or the American civilization has been a dominant force and we should not discount the great civilizations of India and China and the great literatures advanced in them at some epoch in history. Today our knowledge is narrowed down by our obsession with American Culture and British Culture a couple of centuries ago and of course we must break through our peripheral approaches and savor the great literature that can come from anywhere in the world and Take for instance most of Russian literature has been translated and we have that is why the greatest story writer as Chekhov and most choose Dostoevsky and Tolstoy from those American and British novelists. I do not mean to underestimate them. They are great but the Russians were better. So are the French writers; they are iconoclastic, avant-garde.

[Adolescent09]

Why mostly we are English centric? Are not there great poets in France, Germany, India, China and in other nations? It is Americanism and sheer Americanism eclipses the rest of poets from other languages and cultures? Who can ignore if there are really sensible or well read critics here of world literature to de-list ancient Chinese poets, Tao, Sufi poets like Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat? Today Americanism or the American civilization has been a dominant force and we should not discount the great civilizations of India and China and the great literatures advanced in them at some epoch in history. Today our knowledge is narrowed down by our obsession with American Culture and British Culture a couple of centuries ago and of course we must break through our peripheral approaches and savor the great literature that can come from anywhere in the world and Take for instance most of Russian literature has been translated and we have that is why the greatest story writer as Chekhov and most choose Dostoevsky and Tolstoy from those American and British novelists. I do not mean to underestimate them. They are great but the Russians were better. So are the French writers; they are iconoclastic, avant-garde.

Good point but... How often do other countries acknowledge American writers? Most of my creative poetry writing classes in an American University were taught by teachers who were heavily inspired by foreign literature. I myself, have mostly read foreign classics, although I do admit I have not read much foreign poetry.

[mortalterror]

Why mostly we are English centric? Are not there great poets in France, Germany, India, China and in other nations? It is Americanism and sheer Americanism eclipses the rest of poets from other languages and cultures? Who can ignore if there are really sensible or well read critics here of world literature to de-list ancient Chinese poets, Tao, Sufi poets like Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat? Today Americanism or the American civilization has been a dominant force and we should not discount the great civilizations of India and China and the great literatures advanced in them at some epoch in history. Today our knowledge is narrowed down by our obsession with American Culture and British Culture a couple of centuries ago and of course we must break through our peripheral approaches and savor the great literature that can come from anywhere in the world and Take for instance most of Russian literature has been translated and we have that is why the greatest story writer as Chekhov and most choose Dostoevsky and Tolstoy from those American and British novelists. I do not mean to underestimate them. They are great but the Russians were better. So are the French writers; they are iconoclastic, avant-garde.

Nobody in all of this thread has nominated an American for the greatest poet position. You are picking a fight with yourself. For my part, I nominated two Englishmen, two Italians, two Greeks, two Indians, two Persians, and two Romans. You name Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Chekhov but they are all prose writers. You would have done better had you named the great Russian poet Alexander Pushkin, though if you sought to place him above Homer and Dante I'm afraid you would have few takers. And just which French poets would you say eclipse the talents of Tasso and Shakespeare? Victor Hugo and Charles Baudelaire are quite good but I don't know if they are that good. You name Omar Khayyam, but he is a minor poet even in his own tradition. Saadi, Nizami, or Hafiz would all be better candidates for the greatest Persian poet. Meanwhile, you didn't even name a Chinese poet such as Du Fu, Bai Juyi, Li Bai, or Wang Wei, which leads me to believe you are not as well rounded in world literature as you would have the rest of us be.

[cafolini]

Why mostly we are English centric? Are not there great poets in France, Germany, India, China and in other nations? It is Americanism and sheer Americanism eclipses the rest of poets from other languages and cultures? Who can ignore if there are really sensible or well read critics here of world literature to de-list ancient Chinese poets, Tao, Sufi poets like Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat? Today Americanism or the American civilization has been a dominant force and we should not discount the great civilizations of India and China and the great literatures advanced in them at some epoch in history. Today our knowledge is narrowed down by our obsession with American Culture and British Culture a couple of centuries ago and of course we must break through our peripheral approaches and savor the great literature that can come from anywhere in the world and Take for instance most of Russian literature has been translated and we have that is why the greatest story writer as Chekhov and most choose Dostoevsky and Tolstoy from those American and British novelists. I do not mean to underestimate them. They are great but the Russians were better. So are the French writers; they are iconoclastic, avant-garde.

We move more foreign literature in America than anywhere else in the world. Many many writers became famous in America, translated to English first, known by a few in their native language. So few that it would not pay to print their works. You are ignorant.

[Adolescent09]

By the OP asking this question, he/she is just begging for trolls to duke it out over the internet.

I hate to be the one to say 'I knew this would happen'.

[Vladimir777]

Perhaps a dumb question...if Shakespeare had only written the sonnets and his other "poems," and had not written any of his great plays, would he still be considered to be one of the top 5 poets of all time? I'm just curious what people think.

What would people think if Dante hadn't written the Comedia, Milton hadn't composed Paradise Lost, Chaucer hadn't penned the Canterbury Tales... ?

Well, I ask because I know that Shakespeare's sonnets are considered to be some of the finest lyric poems in the language, if not the world. I'm just curious how get they are considered compared to other poets' outputs if we ignore Shakespeare as a dramatist/playwright.

[JBI]

We move more foreign literature in America than anywhere else in the world. Many many writers became famous in America, translated to English first, known by a few in their native language. So few that it would not pay to print their works. You are ignorant.

Germany is pretty good as an international consumer. But yes, the US is the powerhouse of foreign works.

[cafolini]

Germany is pretty good as an international consumer. But yes, the US is the powerhouse of foreign works.

I knew we would most likely agree on that one because of statements you made about how few actual readers you can count in foreign countries, which I know to be true. In fact, in South America, for example, there are many ironic remarks from academics about the worth of publishing among the best. Of course they do publish being very careful about the risks and often using moneys that come from philanthropy and the bits that the fascist element destines for the sole purpose of maintaining the status quo.

[JBI]

I knew we would most likely agree on that one because of statements you made about how few actual readers you can count in foreign countries, which I know to be true. In fact, in South America, for example, there are many ironic remarks from academics about the worth of publishing among the best. Of course they do publish being very careful about the risks and often using moneys that come from philanthropy and the bits that the fascist element destines for the sole purpose of maintaining the status quo.

Still, the only place where classical education is completely political is China where classical Chinese literature has been transposed with "our great cultural legacy." The actual traditions post Renaissance in the world are often just apolitical, or ignored by anybody but academics as to render them completely useless politically.

South America in that sense has freer writers and authors than China does - take for instance the movie Skyfall that just came out. They censored the part in China where he goes to Macao because it features a shot of a Macao prostitute. If they were to publish Marco Polo here, despite his inaccuracy at times, they would censor the exact same thing, where he describes how men here are so free and prostitutes are everywhere and in the open, all for the taking. They also censored a bit where he goes to Shanghai because he kills a Chinese security guard.

Now, most countries are not this petty and weak. The US is actually rare in its approach to translating and studying all cultures. Edward Said damaged academia for about 40 years with his nonsense of how we do it for colonial purposes. The truth of the matter is most academics working in area studies are doing what they do because they love their subject matter, not for money nor for colonial purposes. The US is rare in that it has basically internationalized Japanese literature, and at least tried with several other bodies of literature. There probably is no other country short of maybe the Germanic countries of Europe that has tried or done anything of the sort.

Now, as for the other bigger markets, India, China, and even Japan, they can all be described as xenophobic at best. American literature only exists there in popular literature, not serious literature. Chinese people probably have a shallow understanding of 5 books in their entire life, and their educational careers are the product of memorizing preset answer keys to standardized multiple choice tests. The highest level test for foreigners in China (Chinese level test) ironically was passed with ease by me after barely 2 years of study. I got lucky, I am educated properly. students here after 4 years have difficulty passing the thing, and they have specific courses in universities here designed to get people through their standardized test.

The English test requirement to become either a graduate student or an English school teacher is akin to my grade 6 government test to see students development. That after 4 years of specifically studying to pass a test they cannot even make a sentence is not the point - the government does not even want them to be able to.

Lets just say the old world in general is quite xenophobic. England seems to be a bit better than the continent, but not completely. International cultures are basically restricted to the United States, because that is the only country big enough to study them, with the resources to pull it off. Certain specific literatures may be studied elsewhere, and produced in translation elsewhere, but ultimately nothing compares to the Americans, in both quality and quantity.

[cafolini]

Thanks for the reply. It has a lot of good general info to enhance this thread.

[mortalterror]

Still, the only place where classical education is completely political is China where classical Chinese literature has been transposed with "our great cultural legacy." The actual traditions post Renaissance in the world are often just apolitical, or ignored by anybody but academics as to render them completely useless politically.

South America in that sense has freer writers and authors than China does - take for instance the movie Skyfall that just came out. They censored the part in China where he goes to Macao because it features a shot of a Macao prostitute. If they were to publish Marco Polo here, despite his inaccuracy at times, they would censor the exact same thing, where he describes how men here are so free and prostitutes are everywhere and in the open, all for the taking. They also censored a bit where he goes to Shanghai because he kills a Chinese security guard.

Now, most countries are not this petty and weak. The US is actually rare in its approach to translating and studying all cultures. Edward Said damaged academia for about 40 years with his nonsense of how we do it for colonial purposes. The truth of the matter is most academics working in area studies are doing what they do because they love their subject matter, not for money nor for colonial purposes. The US is rare in that it has basically internationalized Japanese literature, and at least tried with several other bodies of literature. There probably is no other country short of maybe the Germanic countries of Europe that has tried or done anything of the sort.

Now, as for the other bigger markets, India, China, and even Japan, they can all be described as xenophobic at best. American literature only exists there in popular literature, not serious literature. Chinese people probably have a shallow understanding of 5 books in their entire life, and their educational careers are the product of memorizing preset answer keys to standardized multiple choice tests. The highest level test for foreigners in China (Chinese level test) ironically was passed with ease by me after barely 2 years of study. I got lucky, I am educated properly. students here after 4 years have difficulty passing the thing, and they have specific courses in universities here designed to get people through their standardized test.

The English test requirement to become either a graduate student or an English school teacher is akin to my grade 6 government test to see students development. That after 4 years of specifically studying to pass a test they cannot even make a sentence is not the point - the government does not even want them to be able to.

Lets just say the old world in general is quite xenophobic. England seems to be a bit better than the continent, but not completely. International cultures are basically restricted to the United States, because that is the only country big enough to study them, with the resources to pull it off. Certain specific literatures may be studied elsewhere, and produced in translation elsewhere, but ultimately nothing compares to the Americans, in both quality and quantity.

Who are you and what have you done with JBI?

[Adolescent09]

American literature only exists there in popular literature, not serious literature.

I'm assuming you are alluding to the place, "there" as continental Asia since you crudely lump the geographically close, yet culturally clashing countries of India, China, and Japan together. Think I'm going to contest the honesty of your statement? Think again. I agree with it 100%. I merely want to add to it: Many, if not most 'popular' and 'serious' Chinese literature exists in America (I put those two words in quotes since the distinction between them is ambiguous. Obvious ex.: Shakespeare. His writing is both wildly popular even in these days of rampant illiterateness and is analyzed seriously). Very little Chinese literature is actually read by Americans (excluding anime and light fiction), let alone assigned to students in American K-12 schools. I have taken nearly a dozen University literature courses and I highly doubt I read more than two required 'Asian' works (The Epic of Gilgamesh and Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War').

[mortalterror]

I'm assuming you are alluding to the place, "there" as continental Asia since you crudely lump the geographically close, yet culturally clashing countries of India, China, and Japan together. Think I'm going to contest the honesty of your statement? Think again. I agree with it 100%. I merely want to add to it: Many, if not most 'popular' and 'serious' Chinese literature exists in America (I put those two words in quotes since the distinction between them is ambiguous. Obvious ex.: Shakespeare. His writing is both wildly popular even in these days of rampant illiterateness and is analyzed seriously). Very little Chinese literature is actually read by Americans (excluding anime and light fiction), let alone assigned to students in American K-12 schools. I have taken nearly a dozen University literature courses and I highly doubt I read more than two required 'Asian' works (The Epic of Gilgamesh and Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War').

Yeah, I noticed the same thing when I got my English degree. Apparently, my teachers only wanted to teach literature from the English language, and if I wanted to read books from Russia I was forced to take a Russian class. How rude!