so called "Old Literature"

[Aylinn]

And like Latin in Ancient times most people who use it do not know it weell.

Since it takes a lot of effort to master a foreign language, it's unavoidable that people make mistakes. And many language learners either honestly believe that learning all the rules of grammar is beyond their grasp or think that it's too much of a hassle, hence it's sufficient for them if their command of a language is enough to communicate.

[hannah_arendt]

Since it takes a lot of effort to master a foreign language, it's unavoidable that people make mistakes. And many language learners either honestly believe that learning all the rules of grammar is beyond their grasp or think that it's too much of a hassle, hence it's sufficient for them if their command of a language is enough to communicate.

Making mistakes in the case of non-natives is something natural. I have been learning English since I was a child and I am not satisfied with my level. I am conscious that I make mistakes and probably I won`t ever speak as a native. However, recently I have noticed that many people next to me, native-Poles, commits terrible, I would say "stupid" mistakes speaking Polish.

[PeterL]

Since it takes a lot of effort to master a foreign language, it's unavoidable that people make mistakes. And many language learners either honestly believe that learning all the rules of grammar is beyond their grasp or think that it's too much of a hassle, hence it's sufficient for them if their command of a language is enough to communicate.

It takes a lot of effort to master a language, even if it is your first language. There are many native speakers of English who seem to think that learning all of the rules is beyond the. Or maybe they are not aware of all of the rules, and I don't mean nit-picking things like comma placement, but major matters like the subjunctive voice and all of the varieties of the past tense. I have even known people who only used the present tense, regardless of when something happened.

I have also known non-native speakers who try to apply rules from another language into English. There is another board that I frequent where one poster, who translates materials into his native language from English, tries to get pointers on what soemthing would actually mean or how it should be said in English.

[PeterL]

There is in Poland a year of the Polish with events promoting polish language. However, if people doesn`t read it won`t change anything in my opinion. The language is becoming more and more simple.

On the other hand, in the distant past most people didn't use their language to communicate anything except for simple matters, because that was all they did. And there were philosophers, mathematician, shamans, etc. who used the full breadth of the language for communicating complicated ideas. We shouldn't expect the majority of people to use language that they don't need, because they never even try to communicate complicated ideas. Even now, if you communicate with people who have complicated thoughts you will hear complex language structures.

[hannah_arendt]

It takes a lot of effort to master a language, even if it is your first language. There are many native speakers of English who seem to think that learning all of the rules is beyond the. Or maybe they are not aware of all of the rules, and I don't mean nit-picking things like comma placement, but major matters like the subjunctive voice and all of the varieties of the past tense. I have even known people who only used the present tense, regardless of when something happened.

I have also known non-native speakers who try to apply rules from another language into English. There is another board that I frequent where one poster, who translates materials into his native language from English, tries to get pointers on what soemthing would actually mean or how it should be said in English.

It`s very difficult to start thinking in different language without making cliches. When we translate a text, despite grammar and vocabulary, we should pay attention to cultural things too. Polish grammar, despite complicated cases, different endings for each person in tenses, is not so complicated. We have only 2 past tenses ("Past simple", "Past continous"). Earlier we had "Past Perfect" too but it dissapeared at the end of XIX century. However, I like use it sometimes.

[hannah_arendt]

On the other hand, in the distant past most people didn't us their language to communicate anything except for simple matters, because that was all they did. And there were philosophers, mathematician, shamans, etc. who used the full breadth of the language for communicating complicated ideas. We shouldn't expect the majority of people to use language that they don't need, because they never even try to communicate complicated ideas. Even now, if you communicate with people who have complicated thoughts you will hear complex language structures.

The problem here is that sometimes you can`t communicate with such people. I hope that cases won`t dissapear. We don`t have established word order so it would be difficult to understand each other.

It is natural that we describe things we know. That is why Robert Howard did a great thing describing barbarians in very simple language. Nowadays writers very often forgot about adjusting the language, a kind of decorum. I don`t know whether it happens in English but in Polish does.

[kiki1982]

Many contemporary language still have: aspect, cases etc. For example German has 4 cases and gives many possibilities of creating new words. In Polish, there is aspect whereas in English we use just the adequate tense.

Old languages (I don`t like the word 'dead') gave more opportunities to express yourself very briefly. Almost everything we have now, we have inherited. There is no doubt that our culture is creating new things all the time but we couldn`t do without Plato or Aristotle. Sometimes it seems to me that we are becoming more and more superficial and lazy.

Of course we still have those things like aspect etc., but as you also say, we can't express them briefly anymore. In English, you need three words to express 'I have done', in Russian you need one and in Latin too (I don't know about Polish, maybe a little more than Russian).

You are right that for Slaves it would become a problem to communicate without cases. Apart from the odd preposition; what's the difference in meaning only between 'a sem c nim' or 'a sem s on'? Granted, it sounds weird, but in terms of meaning, you'd probably understand. If on the other hand, you were to leave out a dative case in a long long sentence, the direct and indirect objects could get swapped around in hte mind of your listener. Chaos abound!

German on the other hand has fixed word order. It's daughter language Dutch has got no cases anymore and we manage fine. The only real remnant of the old case system is our personal pronouns which are structured in two tiers like in English (although some linguists insist on a separate form for the third person plural dative, but that's nonsense). Germans could manage perfectly well without cases, I think and it's going that way. In spoken language, they don't use the genitive case anymore, but use 'von + dat.' instead.

But, may I ask, what do Poles do if they have to express a past perfective idea?

[PeterL]

The problem here is that sometimes you can`t communicate with such people. I hope that cases won`t dissapear. We don`t have established word order so it would be difficult to understand each other.

Cases are not necessary, if there are prepositions that make it clear what function a noun has. English only has cases for pronouns, and the lack does not create any problem.

It is natural that we describe things we know. That is why Robert Howard did a great thing describing barbarians in very simple language. Nowadays writers very often forgot about adjusting the language, a kind of decorum. I don`t know whether it happens in English but in Polish does.

I also find that many writers do not make their language fit the situation. Lovecraft was better than Howard at that, and Hemingway did that quite well in his dialogue. I find that a skilled writer can tell more about a character through dialogue than any other way. The vocabulary, pacing, sentence length, and sentence structures are important in showing how someone thinks. (see: Styles and Structures by Charles Kay Smith)

[Aylinn]

But, may I ask, what do Poles do if they have to express a past perfective idea?

There is no equivalent of Past Perfect in modern Polish. There was once, but it's obsolete now, so in order to express that something occurred before another action in the past you need to use conjunctions such as before. In other words, time clauses are used in such situations.

If you simply want to say that an action is completed, you add a prefix, e.g: "Robiłam" - I was doing. "Zrobiłam" - I have done.

[hannah_arendt]

Of course we still have those things like aspect etc., but as you also say, we can't express them briefly anymore. In English, you need three words to express 'I have done', in Russian you need one and in Latin too (I don't know about Polish, maybe a little more than Russian).

You are right that for Slaves it would become a problem to communicate without cases. Apart from the odd preposition; what's the difference in meaning only between 'a sem c nim' or 'a sem s on'? Granted, it sounds weird, but in terms of meaning, you'd probably understand. If on the other hand, you were to leave out a dative case in a long long sentence, the direct and indirect objects could get swapped around in hte mind of your listener. Chaos abound!

German on the other hand has fixed word order. It's daughter language Dutch has got no cases anymore and we manage fine. The only real remnant of the old case system is our personal pronouns which are structured in two tiers like in English (although some linguists insist on a separate form for the third person plural dative, but that's nonsense). Germans could manage perfectly well without cases, I think and it's going that way. In spoken language, they don't use the genitive case anymore, but use 'von + dat.' instead.

But, may I ask, what do Poles do if they have to express a past perfective idea?

In German, cases has always been a problem for me. Now it`s over but it is very difficult. The same occurs with adjectives. At the very beginning it seemed to me complicated.

In Polish, we just use Past Tense. We don`t pay much attention which activity happened earlier. We use the word such as at the beginning, earlier, after etc.

[hannah_arendt]

Cases are not necessary, if there are prepositions that make it clear what function a noun has. English only has cases for pronouns, and the lack does not create any problem.



I also find that many writers do not make their language fit the situation. Lovecraft was better than Howard at that, and Hemingway did that quite well in his dialogue. I find that a skilled writer can tell more about a character through dialogue than any other way. The vocabulary, pacing, sentence length, and sentence structures are important in showing how someone thinks. (see: Styles and Structures by Charles Kay Smith)

It is very difficult to write a good dialogue. I`ve had a problem with it. Thanks for the title

[hannah_arendt]

There is no equivalent of Past Perfect in modern Polish. There was once, but it's obsolete now, so in order to express that something occurred before another action in the past you need to use conjunctions such as before. In other words, time clauses are used in such situations.

If you simply want to say that an action is completed, you add a prefix, e.g: "Robiłam" - I was doing. "Zrobiłam" - I have done.

Do you speak Polish? I am asking of sheer curiosity

[PeterL]

It is very difficult to write a good dialogue. I`ve had a problem with it. Thanks for the title

You are more than welcome. It is a good and useful book.

[Aylinn]

Do you speak Polish? I am asking of sheer curiosity

I am Polish.

[hannah_arendt]

I am Polish.

Miło mi Może przypadkiem też polonistką?