Classical Listening

[Charles Darnay]

Because it came up recently, I've been listening to Monteverdi's settimo libro di madrigall: forgot how good it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79nKpA71ryc

(not the best recording, but....)

[Onirem2000]

I have trouble reading english but I can assure you Bach and his son Carl are by far the best. Take my word for it. I'm sorry I didn't read all that everyone said I was say window shopping.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

.
Happy Birthday Mozart
The mention of your name brings back so many fond memories from a couple years ago.

Hilary Hahn & Natalie Zhu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xPIyePmNk


Kyrie Eleison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-ttyIhSYk

[MorpheusSandman]

Happy Birthday Mozart

Ha! I was just about to bump this thread by saying this as well! Anyway, allow me to echo the sentiments: Happy Birthday to, IMHO, the greatest composer that ever lived. I only wish we would've been privileged to hear another 20 years or so of his genius. Mozart turned me on to classical music back in my early teens, and he remains the composer I still come back to the most after all these years. There are so many gems in his oeuvre--many of which are under-appreciated to this day--that it's difficult to tire of his work. A good example is his String Trio K. 563, which is still probably the finest trio of any type I've ever heard.

[stlukesguild]

Happy Birthday to, IMHO, the greatest composer that ever lived.

I share your sentiments in wishing Wolfgang a Happy Birthday (although, sadly I must demote him to the rank of second greatest composer ever, J.S. Bach firmly standing above all) I agree that there are so many gems by Mozart that are not well enough known... or heard. One of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLdTf2JjrYI

Mozart's operas are the pinnacle of his oeuvre... and among the finest works ever produced within the genre. Over the past year a body of work that I have been rediscovering is his collected concert arias. These brilliant works virtually add up to another one... if not two operas worth of marvelous operatic arias:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsts8BK1lVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i7HbAYVbLM

[MorpheusSandman]

^ I love that quintet as well. I've already expressed my opinions for Bach earlier in this thread, so I won't retread that ground. As for the pinnacles of Mozart's oevure, I put his concertos and operas about equal. I don't think any composer dominated the concerto genre like Mozart did. His Piano concertos, especially, are one of the towering cycles in music history, and most all of his other concertos are amongst the absolute best for their respective instruments. On the other hand, there are at least 2 (many would argue more) composers whose operas are as great as Mozart's: Wagner and Verdi. I personally prefer Mozart's best to their best, but that's just taste. I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue another composer was equal to Mozart as a composer of concertos.

As for really unknown but great Mozart, how about the Adagio for Glass Harmonica? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE_MZzvigd4

[stlukesguild]

I quite agree with regard to Mozart's piano concertos. I don't think anyone equals or surpasses Mozart in this realm. There might be individual piano sonatas that equal or (gasp!) surpass Mozart's finest (Off hand I think of Beethoven's Emperor) but no one rivals the whole of Mozart's oeuvre. Mozart did for the piano concerto what Beethoven did for the piano sonata, Haydn did for the symphony and string quartet, and Schubert did for lieder.

I will agree that there are several operatic composers who deserve to stand shoulder to shoulder with Mozart... or close to that: Wagner, Handel, Richard Strauss, and Verdi primary among them (and I might add Benjamin Britten). Still... if I were to make a list of the 25 greatest operas (or my favorites... whatever the case may be) Mozart would be the composer most represented:

1. Wagner- Tristan und Isolde
2. Mozart- Die Zauberflöte
3. Mozart- Le Nozze di Figaro
4. Mozart- Don Giovanni
5. Verdi- La Traviata
6. Wagner- Parsifal
7. Richard Strauss- Salome
8. Wagner- Die Walkure
9. Puccini- La Boheme
10. Richard Strauss- Der Rosenkavalier
11. Bizet- Carmen
12. Berlioz- Les Troyens
13. Donizetti- Lucia di Lammermoor
14. Tchaikovsky- Eugene Onegin
15. Rossini- The Barber of Seville
16. Humperdinck- Hansel and Gretel
17. Verdi- Aida
18. Handel- Giulio Cesare
19. Monteverdi- L'Orfeo
20. Gluck- Orfeo ed Euridice
21. Bellini- I Capuleti e i Montecchi
22. Wagner- Götterdämmerung
23. Mozart- Cosi fan tutte
24. Puccini- Madame Butterfly
25. Rameau- Les Indes gallantes

Although the whole order might change tomorrow, Mozart's "Big Four" would remain firmly entrenched.

[MorpheusSandman]

I would agree there are concertos that equal Mozart's best, but I don't believe any clearly surpass them. Off the top of my head, if I was to do a quick Top 20 list it would be:

1. Mozart's 24th
2. Mozart's 23rd
3. Schumann's
4. Brahms' 2nd
5. Beethoven's 4th
6. Mozart's 20th
7. Mozart's 21st
8. Liszt's 1st
9. Brahms' 1st
10. Bartok's 3rd
11. Mozart's 22nd
12. Chopin's 2nd
13. Bartok's 2nd
14. Tchaikovsky's 1st
15. Mozart's 25th
16. Liszt's 2nd
17. Mozart's 19th
18. Grieg's
19. Mozart's 17th
20. Chopin's 1st

I have never been enamored with Beethoven's piano concertos beyond his 4th, which I still feel is his best--certainly his most lyrical. His 5th has always sounded a bit strained to me, like he was really trying to push the piano beyond what it was capable of at the time. It's definitely forward looking, but I think it ends up in that no-man's land of not being quite classical or romantic.

As for operas, I'm a bit surprised you put Handel on that list. I know his operas are beloved amongst other Handelians, but amidst more classical fans of opera they seem to get rather little attention. Most feel Handel's best work was saved for his English oratorios, and while I feel that's true to some extent, there's definitely some wonderful moments in his operas. As for my own list:

1. Don Giovanni
2. Parsifal
3. Cosi fan tutte
4. Carmen
5. Les Troyens
6. Duke Bluebeard's Castle
7. Aida
8. Boris Godunov
9. Barber of Seville
10. Otello
11. Falstaff
12. Le Nozze di Figaro
13. The Rake's Progress
14. Die Meistersinger
15. Dido & Aeneas
16. Elektra
17. La Forza Del Destino
18. The Magic Flute
19. Pelleas and Mellisande
20. Norma
21. Ariodante
22. La Traviata
23. Der Rosenkavalier
24. Idomeneo
25. Tristan Und Isolde

As you said, much of this list could change radically tomorrow. I've never really bothered to rank them before, but my top 5 is pretty secure.

[Charles Darnay]

No Baroque on your concerto list? As much as I love Mozart and the Romantics, I think that Back and Vivaldi produced some of the most pleasing concertos. Although, as a clarinet player, Mozart's Clarinet Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oNnugi3yLU) tops my list.

[Charles Darnay]

I quite agree with regard to Mozart's piano concertos. I don't think anyone equals or surpasses Mozart in this realm. There might be individual piano sonatas that equal or (gasp!) surpass Mozart's finest (Off hand I think of Beethoven's Emperor) but no one rivals the whole of Mozart's oeuvre. Mozart did for the piano concerto what Beethoven did for the piano sonata, Haydn did for the symphony and string quartet, and Schubert did for lieder.

I will agree that there are several operatic composers who deserve to stand shoulder to shoulder with Mozart... or close to that: Wagner, Handel, Richard Strauss, and Verdi primary among them (and I might add Benjamin Britten). Still... if I were to make a list of the 25 greatest operas (or my favorites... whatever the case may be) Mozart would be the composer most represented:

1. Wagner- Tristan und Isolde
2. Mozart- Die Zauberflöte
3. Mozart- Le Nozze di Figaro
4. Mozart- Don Giovanni
5. Verdi- La Traviata
6. Wagner- Parsifal
7. Richard Strauss- Salome
8. Wagner- Die Walkure
9. Puccini- La Boheme
10. Richard Strauss- Der Rosenkavalier
11. Bizet- Carmen
12. Berlioz- Les Troyens
13. Donizetti- Lucia di Lammermoor
14. Tchaikovsky- Eugene Onegin
15. Rossini- The Barber of Seville
16. Humperdinck- Hansel and Gretel
17. Verdi- Aida
18. Handel- Giulio Cesare
19. Monteverdi- L'Orfeo
20. Gluck- Orfeo ed Euridice
21. Bellini- I Capuleti e i Montecchi
22. Wagner- Götterdämmerung
23. Mozart- Cosi fan tutte
24. Puccini- Madame Butterfly
25. Rameau- Les Indes gallantes

Although the whole order might change tomorrow, Mozart's "Big Four" would remain firmly entrenched.

My opera list is very similar to yours - I will also throw in the inconsistency clause.

1. Le Nozze di Figaro
2. Tristan Und Isolde
3. Carmen
4. Dido and Aeneas
5. Barber of Sevellie
6. Il Trovatore
7. Die Zauberflote
8. La Boheme
9. Lucia di Lammermoor
10. Othello

after that, it is a free-for all. Sometimes I am just in the mood for Mozart's operas, and Don Giovani and Clemenza di Tito will jump to the top of the list.

[MorpheusSandman]

No Baroque on your concerto list?

I was rating piano concertos only. Some might include some Baroque harpsichord concertos under the more general heading of "keyboard concertos," but I wasn't considering them. Obviously if we're talking any concertos then the list would be quite different, and Mozart's Clarinet Concerto would be in my top 5. Handel's Op. 6 Concerti Grossi is also amongst my favorite instrumental music ever.

[Charles Darnay]

ah, I missed the piano part (though I should have picked up on that).

[stlukesguild]

I think the reason that many place later (Romantic/Post-Romantic piano concertos above any single works by Mozart is due to the fact that they took the form further and brought a greater complexity and grandeur to the the genre. I don't fully accept this. I feel there are symphonies and quartets by Haydn (and Mozart) that are every bit as brilliant as the "bigger" works by Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, etc...

A list of my favorite 20 (+/-) piano concertos would be a real challenge.

1. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 20 (Ever since Amadeus this concerto has been my favorite... especially the bittersweet... yet almost child-like Romanze):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHKJeoXdNM

2. Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto no. 1 (I suspect that some of my favorites owe as much to the performance as to the composer... that is certainly true of the unrivaled Van Cliburn/Kondrashin recording). Then again... Tchaikovsky's concerto most certainly must have the most brilliant opening of any piano concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Xy_QXSskw

3. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 5 ("The Emperor")- I love the 4th as well... especially as performed by Emil Gilels, but the 5th is heartbreaking when one recognizes what Beethoven might have gone on to do in the genre had he not lost his hearing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYl6iI4l9gA

4. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 21 ("Elvira Madigan")- Mozart almost invents Romanticism with the Andante:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-eLzao63I

5. Maurice Ravel Piano Concerto in G Major- If Ravel had composed nothing else than this one concerto, his place in music would have been assured:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBm8vJPfKc

6. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto 27- Another one of Mozart's works with moments that are not of this earth... or that rather, as JCamilo suggested of Michelangelo... that justify humanity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbsSJ0R3lJQ

7. J.S. Bach Keyboard Concerto BWV 1052- While originally scored for harpsichord, Bach essentially invented the keyboard concerto... and BWV 1052 is brilliant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MuioQ-zaKo

8. Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no. 2- Another other-worldly moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAK2J05Vmhc

9. Grieg Piano Concerto in A-minor- After Tchaikovsky, Grieg must surely offer the most dramatic opening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO-H37t1fQQ

10. Brahms Piano Concerto no. 1- While it took me some time to dig through the density of Brahms' symphonies, I got into the piano concertos immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHSxBNxHygE

11. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 23-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMYjGkgzinU

12. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 4- Gilels!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bql1jrNm_g

13. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 3-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSWvi7N6Gtw

14. Liszt Piano Concerto no. 1- I only really "discovered" this concerto this past summer... in spite of having owned the recording for some years. I can't believe how this combination of Richter and Kondrashin didn't grab me earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMaL-rtOeqE

15. W.A. Mozart- Piano Concerto no. 19-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSyayhVuZQc

16. Gershwin Piano Concerto in F- Gershwin's was another sad premature death. The composer was just beginning to get into the swing of composing for the whole orchestra... and he merged the American energy of Hollywood musicals and jazz with the classical realm of Ravel and Shostakovitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4vj-FYMkdc

17. Prokofiev Piano Concerto no. 3- And here's a performance for Emil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfGBmbNbMw

18. Schumann Piano Concerto in A-minor-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhR4TnV8XE

19. Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no. 3-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOOfoW5_2iE

20. Piano Concerto no. 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge-V8PwR9hI

Of course I'll be the first to admit that this list is limited to those works that I am very well acquainted with. I was impressed with the recording of Bartok's three piano concertos by Bavouzet, but I haven't listened to them enough to seriously rank them. The same is true of Shostakovitch. And then there are a slew of other concertos by Russians and Poles... and even Americans... such as this work by Ned Rorem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrEXRVDSZU

Your choice of operas is interesting. Bluebeard's Castle would certainly be within the next 10 or so. I first heard it this past summer and was quite blown away. The same is true of Pelleas and Mellisande. I quite like what I know of Russian opera... but I must listen to it quite a bit more.

Handel? I think that Handel is no different than Monteverdi, Alessandro Scarlatti, J.C. Bach, Hasse, Rameau, Lully, Vivaldi, etc... in that he is grossly underrated outside of the realm of Baroque aficionados. Seriously, Handel was quite likely the greatest composer in Europe during his twenties and his cantatas and Italian operas are a great part of this. I suspect that in the Anglo-world his oratorios are far more popular in that they build upon the British tradition of choral music and stress the chorus over solo arias. Still... this is the work of a major operatic composer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Jd6dnEA0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7XH-58eB8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-KSJBuDC5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmzZLolnUVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCdCyIetB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0RyyqL6KN0

For those unfamiliar with Handel the operatic composer, there is no better place to start than Bejun Mehta's great disc, Ombra Cara.

[WyattGwyon]

Some that haven't been mentioned:

Bartok's Second is brilliant, though some find it too dense contrapuntally.
Barber's Piano Concerto is magnificent.
Schnittke's Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra should be on the list.
Prokofiev's Second I find more interesting than the Third.
Stravinsky's is great too.

C.P.E. Bach's best keyboard concertos rival those of Mozart. Wq 23 in D Minor is arguably better than nearly all of them. Unlike Mozart, whose big ones in the minor mode (C Minor and D minor) have hopelessly anticlimactic finales, Bach follows through.

[MorpheusSandman]

I think the reason that many place later (Romantic/Post-Romantic piano concertos above any single works by Mozart is due to the fact that they took the form further and brought a greater complexity and grandeur to the the genre. I don't fully accept this. I feel there are symphonies and quartets by Haydn (and Mozart) that are every bit as brilliant as the "bigger" works by Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, etc...

I'm with you in not accepting this. In fact, I really appreciate the combination of levity and profundity in much of Mozart and Haydn's work that's sadly missing in many of their successors. I've always said that I think that levity made the profound moments stand out all the more, so by the time Mozart composed something like his Requiem, it truly was "wild and terrible" as Beethoven called it. In terms of Haydn, I'd even extend this beyond the symphonies and quartets to the piano trios and sonatas, both of which are still sadly underrated. Haydn's mature sonatas were as much ahead of their time as his mature work in the other genres, and his trios, while perhaps not as deep, contain some of the best music to come out of the classical period.

A list of my favorite 20 (+/-) piano concertos would be a real challenge.

I'm surprised not to see Mozart's 24th on there. I always considered that to be the perfect combination of the drama of the 20th, the lyricism of the 21st, and the poignancy of the 23rd. I've never been quite able to get into Tchaikovsky, as I tend to find him more show than substance too much of the time. I completely forgot about Ravel... he'd probably be in my revised top 15. Do give Bartok's concertos some more listens as I find them to be the finest PCs of the 20th century (though I'm an unabashed Bartok fan, in general).

Your choice of operas is interesting. Bluebeard's Castle would certainly be within the next 10 or so. I first heard it this past summer and was quite blown away. The same is true of Pelleas and Mellisande. I quite like what I know of Russian opera... but I must listen to it quite a bit more.

Both get better with repeat listens. Someone on another board once asked if there were any horror operas, and I said the only one I know of Bluebeard's Castle, which isn't ostensibly horror, yet is still strangely terrifying. It really needs Hungarian singers, though, to get the poetry of the text right. The famous Kurtesz has better singers, but overall I prefer the Ivan Fisher version, with its superior sonics and native Hungarian cast. Pelleas is similar to Bluebeard in that, in both, atmosphere is just as important as having the best singers and right conductor, and a lot of atmosphere comes down to sound, which is probably why I love the Boulez recording, even though it doesn't have the starriest cast.

Handel? I think that Handel is no different than Monteverdi, Alessandro Scarlatti, J.C. Bach, Hasse, Rameau, Lully, Vivaldi, etc... in that he is grossly underrated outside of the realm of Baroque aficionados.

Handel is my third favorite composer behind Mozart and Beethoven. Back in '09 on the 250th Anniversary of his death, Presto Classical had a huge sale on Handel recordings and I went nuts and bout about $1000 worth. Needless to say, I had a remarkably fun time going through them over the next several months. One thing I quickly learned is that Handel was incapable of composing bad or boring music, and even his work from his early 20s (as you note) are of an extraordinary high quality. I fell in love with Glossa's series of his Italian Cantatas, and it's evident even there that he had an unmatched ability for theatrical composition, especially in how he scores for his various characters. Clori, Tirsi, et Fileno is a perfect example of this, where the capricious Clori is given equally capricious, seductive music; the fiery Tirsi is given the most melodramatic numbers; and the more meditative, reflective Fileno is given the most understated numbers. He clearly used his cantatas as a workshop for his ideas about musical drama, which paid off time and again in his operas and oratorios.

About the only knock against Handel's operas is that they're so consistently good, it's hard to pick that one (or those few) standouts to place amongst the best operas ever. Most critics agree on Mozart's "big four" operas, or the 5-6 best from Wagner and Verdi, but I suspect if you asked Handelians their favorite Handel opera, you'd get a lot of different answers. Giulio Cesare is probably his most well-known and beloved outside Handelians, yet I think there are a few that are even better--certainly every bit its equal. Ariodante and Alcina, eg; both of which have been served by some amazing recordings. Also, while it's not quite opera, his Acis & Galateo is one of the few musical dramas of any kind where I've memorized every aria. Perhaps not a profound work, but catchier than anything you hear on pop radio today.

So, yeah, you'll get no argument from me against Handel as an opera composer, or composer of any kind.