Theodicy for or against God

[russellb]

It is impossible to demosntrate God exists in the same way that it is impossible to prove Jesus was crucified.

Is it impossible to demonstrate that in 1066 the battle of hastings took place in the south of england? This is the same order of claim (historical) as the claim that Jesus was crucified. To claim that God exists on the other hand is to make a claim, i presume, about a being who transcends the temporal universe. Whether hastings took place or jesus was crucified is a matter of weighing up the historical evidence. As for deciding about the old man are we agreed on what constitutes evidence? Perhaps to the person of faith evidence is besides the point. And perhaps for all their huffing and puffing atheists can't come up with any evidence to support their point either

[cafolini]

Is it impossible to demonstrate that in 1066 the battle of hastings took place in the south of england? This is the same order of claim (historical) as the claim that Jesus was crucified. To claim that God exists on the other hand is to make a claim, i presume, about a being who transcends the temporal universe. Whether hastings took place or jesus was crucified is a matter of weighing up the historical evidence. As for deciding about the old man are we agreed on what constitutes evidence? Perhaps to the person of faith evidence is besides the point. And perhaps for all their huffing and puffing atheists can't come up with any evidence to support their point either

Evidence is indeed besides the point. Why? Because for any bit of finite scientific fact (knowledge), there is an infinity that cannot be known. God be with you.

[bulfinch]

I think the arguments against the problem of evil slant more toward free will, that is, that it wasn't god who created evil but rather that humans chose of their own free will to defy god and thus "create" evil. God places a high value on free will, and thus, allows us to choose to be good or evil, and being imperfect humans, we frequently choose evil.

And yet you conveniently ignored natural disasters, plague, hunger, and everything else that humans do not decide. I mean whatever God you choose to believe in places us on a planet of limited resources and active crustal plates and leaves us to our own devices. My point is that not all evil is human created and if that's the case then we need to take that into account when responding to the problem of evil.

Also, what's interesting to me is that fromt he Christian perspective, evil pre-dates humans, in the form of Satan and his legions. So it seems to me that God purposefully allows evil to continue to exist, for we must assume that angels have no freewill and neither would the Satan.

[YesNo]

I mean whatever God you choose to believe in places us on a planet of limited resources and active crustal plates and leaves us to our own devices. My point is that not all evil is human created and if that's the case then we need to take that into account when responding to the problem of evil.

Then let's leave any particular God out of it unless one actually believes in that God. How should one respond to the problem of evil?

[bulfinch]

Then let's leave any particular God out of it unless one actually believes in that God. How should one respond to the problem of evil?

I would think that if a deity did exist its motives and intentions would be completely beyond human understanding. There would be a huge comprehension gulf between the mind of a person and that of a all knowing all powerful God that created everything. But that's unsatisfying and I would think a better argument does exist.

[Snow]

I find this word quite intriguing because it plays on the notion that the presense of evil in the word negate the existence of God.
The other idea is that evil could not exist without good/ie God.
The question that comes to mind is this:

Does God need beliefs from anyone to exist?

But my question is that...does God exist???

[cacian]

But my question is that...does God exist???

Good question but one that I never paused myself. It never bothered me personally to think whether there is a god or not.
It is not in my nature to obsess about concepts and therefore the answer is unimportant to me.
The next question however if it help at all is this:
What do you think?

[Snow]

Ya u r right..everyone is having their own views and beliefs.
i believe that GOD is just a name to make people scared of atleast something.so that they wont dare to do bad/evil things.
For me,Parents are the real GOD..
its jus MY view or belief.

[cacian]

Ya u r right..everyone is having their own views and beliefs.
i believe that GOD is just a name to make people scared of atleast something.so that they wont dare to do bad/evil things.
For me,Parents are the real GOD..
its jus MY view or belief.

You are pretty much right there. Whoever created the word GOD intended to install fear of some sort. I think fear is deadly when it takes over someone. Existence and life can do without this terrifying god that is out to get people.

[chrisiacovetti]

I was just thinking about theodicy, specifically from a Christian perspective. Curious what you guys have to say about this:

At its core, the problem of evil is more of an existential question than it is a rational one. I spent a long long time trying to figure out a rational answer (from a Christian perspective), but it ultimately just left me unsatisfied. This isn't to say that there is no rational answer though - it's just that the rational sphere wasn't really the sphere that addressed the core of the question for me.

Greg Boyd, for instance, has created a satisfactory rational answer to the problem of evil that coincides neatly with Chrisianity. (Angels/humans both have free will; they both rebelled; evil came about; etc.). But it feels shallow to me for some reason.

I think that my best understanding in regards to theodicy and the problem of evil is that, biblically, it is the responsibility of both God and humans to respond to it with their lives. Jesus' death wasn't an intellectual answer to the problem, but it was a self-sacrificial, existential response to it. I really don't think this example Jesus provides need be exclusively revered by Christians; it's pretty simple and admirable from any ordinary perspective.

And as for humans in general, maybe we can follow that example (regardless of what we think of Jesus) and respond to evil before we even attempt to rationalize it? My increasing suspicion is that it will only be in this response that I'll ever find anything close to an 'answer.' Who knows though? Personally, the Christian faith intrigues me because it talks about a God who suffers with his creation. Or, in Berdyaev's words:

"Christ as the God-Man is both the sole possible theodicy and the sole possible anthropodicy. The sacrifice of Christ on Golgotha, made by God and by man, is a theodicy not merely intellectual, but rather in life, and in deed. The Lamb is given in ransom from the very foundation of the world. The sacrifice of God primordially has entered into the plane of the world-creation. God Himself shares in the tragedy of the world, in the sufferings of the world, and takes upon Himself the sufferings of mankind."

[Shaman_Raman]

Interesting feed...about good and evil. It's funny, how being faced with evil makes humans resentful, against the idea of God. But what are we calling evil? And why are we calling it that?

Here's why I ask...man's fall, according to Genesis,happened when Adam and Eve ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Prior to this, God grants man free will to do as he pleases, all but not to eat from this tree. When Adam and Eve do this, they suddenly see themselves as naked, and hide from God before he even knows what they've done. It's not till later God finds them and realizes what they've done that he separates from them.

Theologians constantly say our sin was disobeying God, but is that all of it? I mean are we not looking into the significance of the act. Man has free will, and chooses to eat from this tree, desiring good and evil. Could the irony be that in doing this, we actually lost our free will, now every action requiring a reflection of whether it's good or evil? Maybe our greatest sin was not disobeying God, but rather becoming slaves to the good and the evil, never choosing actions just for their own sake.

Look at what knowledge of good and evil does. Certain people get set above others as more good, and arrogantly talk down to those considered lacking good. We envy what we don't have, because we see what someone else has as good, and our own possessions as bad. We murder, because we justify our side as good, and the other side as evil.

Maybe the knowledge of good and evil was more harmful to humankind than helpful.

[The Atheist]

Sorry to join the party so late, but I'll just drop in Epicurus who was winning this battle long before the alleged birth of Jesus.

If there is a God, beliefs are not needed for him to exist. Beliefs do not cause anyone or anything to exist (at least not by the mere cognitive activity of believing). Beliefs about a woman being pregnant do not cause a woman to become pregnant. Just as your laptop exists independently of a mind knowing it, if God exists, he'll exist whether someone believes he does. Things that exist exist independently of minds.

Exceedingly well put.

Ya u r right..everyone is having their own views and beliefs.
i believe that GOD is just a name to make people scared of atleast something.so that they wont dare to do bad/evil things.
For me,Parents are the real GOD..
its jus MY view or belief.

Wild guess here - you're quite young?

Either way, you are right on track.

Just like dogs - their god is human. Cats may offer a different perspective.

And perhaps for all their huffing and puffing atheists can't come up with any evidence to support their point either

You seem to misunderstand what "atheist" actually means.

Whatever you've been told, it is literarily, grammatically, factually and actually correct to use this definition:

Atheism - the lack of belief in god/s. (A= without; theism = belief in god)

Nothing else.

There are degrees of atheism, certainly; from people like me - who burn effigies of the pope and use the sacred host as mini-frisbees - to people like your neighbour who just doesn't believe in any god/s but never even occurs to him to question why other people do. People also have different reasons for being atheists, but none of that matters to the description above.

Just like an a-philatelist's only trait is the not collecting stamps.

[chrisiacovetti]

Maybe the knowledge of good and evil was more harmful to humankind than helpful.

I would absolutely say so. I never picked up on this for years, but I was reading a Jewish commentary and a Rabbi brought up a brilliant little observation about Genesis 3 (the "Fall" passage).

In the passage, God actually sends Adam and Eve out of the garden for their own sakes. He realizes how miserable and burdened by this new knowledge they will become, and so he prevents them from ever eating of the Tree of Life once they eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Read the passage carefully:

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

It would be a disaster for men to 'live forever' with knowledge of good and evil. So, yes, both biblically and practically speaking, I think you're dead-on right.

[cafolini]

The impersonation of God is not very productive. But people make it look inevitable. Food for atheists to chew with arrogance.

[The Atheist]

The impersonation of God is not very productive. But people make it look inevitable. Food for atheists to chew with arrogance.

Not really. You've just gone back to Voltaire.

The fact that it isn't inevitable is pretty simple, because it's learned behaviour.