The right to bear arms

[ennison]

A right-wing journalist in the Times of London writes today that guns are fun (cove's name rhymes with sonofa*****) He knows this because he loved playing with guns when he was a boy. Well I guess we can take Peter Pan's opinion on board too. He quotes an American gun lover as saying that watching "melons die is fun". There is a level of immature thinking involved in those who believe owning a large powerful gun makes life safer. There are too many flaws in human nature to make easy gun access anything other than a social evil.

[qimissung]

The youngest child shot, the first to be buried:


"And in a harrowing description of Noah’s corpse laid to rest, some idea is given of the damage the assault weapon wrought on his young body:
The family placed stuffed animals, a blanket and letters to Noah into the casket. Lastly, Veronique put a clear plastic rock with a white angel inside — an “angel stone” — in his right hand. She asked the funeral director to place an identical one in his left, which was badly mangled. Noah’s famously long eyelashes, which she spoke about in her eulogy, rested lightly on his cheeks and a cloth covered the place where his lower jaw had been."

[Sancho]

A right-wing journalist in the Times of London writes today that guns are fun (cove's name rhymes with sonofa*****) He knows this because he loved playing with guns when he was a boy. Well I guess we can take Peter Pan's opinion on board too. He quotes an American gun lover as saying that watching "melons die is fun". There is a level of immature thinking involved in those who believe owning a large powerful gun makes life safer. There are too many flaws in human nature to make easy gun access anything other than a social evil.

Agreed. My advice to guys who like guns is always - why don't'cha join the army? They've got lots of guns.

Well, not really a very good argument, Sancho, as there is a rise in the number of children getting whooping cough and some other serious illnesses because their parents are afraid of the vaccines , but point taken, nevertheless.

I'm watching my favorite Christmas movie, "The Christmas Story." It's not about the birth of Jesus, but about a little boy who wants a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas, and his attempts to convince his parents to get him one.

He almost, but not quite, shoots his eye out toward the end of the movie.

Yep. I'm aware of the pandemic (maybe it's an epidemic, or perhaps just a fad) of soccer moms not inoculating their kids because of the latest "science" they've heard about. Anyway, I was just talking trash about vaccinations. I've had my small pox vaccination and I've got a scar on my left arm to prove it. I'm that old. And from my time as a GI, I've also had just about every other vaccination under the sun squirted into me, compliments of Uncle Sam.

You know, I've never seen that movie. But I've watched National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation a dozen times. Naturally, I most closely identified with Eddie (played by Randy Quaid).

Eddie: Every time Catherine revved up the microwave, I'd piss my pants and forget who I was for about half an hour or so.

Art: [to Rocky] You got a kiss for me?
Eddie: Better take a rain check on that, Art - he's got a lip fungus they ain't identified yet...

Eddie: (talking to Clark about his daughter, Ruby Sue) She falls down a well, her eyes go cross. She gets kicked by a mule. They go back...I don't know.

What were we chatting about again? Oh yes, guns. They're a problem all right. I don't know what to do, but I'm convinced that this latest school shooting will change the debate. And I'm certain that our left-leaning president, who isn't facing reelection, would happily affix his name to any serious gun-control legislation that hits his desk. It's just one of the reasons I voted for him.

[qimissung]

I wasn't trying to bust your chops or anything, Sancho, honestly, just pointing out a weakness in your analogy. I wouldn't be a card-carrying English teacher if I didn't do that!

I did not watch that one this year, but it's a perennial favorite. What does that say about us as a country, I wonder?

[prendrelemick]

A right-wing journalist in the Times of London writes today that guns are fun (cove's name rhymes with sonofa*****) He knows this because he loved playing with guns when he was a boy. Well I guess we can take Peter Pan's opinion on board too. He quotes an American gun lover as saying that watching "melons die is fun". There is a level of immature thinking involved in those who believe owning a large powerful gun makes life safer. There are too many flaws in human nature to make easy gun access anything other than a social evil.

David Aaranovich is right wing in an English way - which means he's a lefty-pinko-bleeding-heart-liberal by GOP's standards. (I happen to follow him on twitter) And he is right, guns are fun, hunting is fun, clay pigeon shooting is fun, I used to go rabbiting with a .410 at the age of twelve - they were the best of times, I still go now. Let's not pretend that guns aren't fun.

But to own one is a big responsibility. Which should be thought of as a privilege rather than a right.

[Sancho]

^ "I betcha he's even got a commie flag tacked up on the wall inside of his garage."

I wasn't trying to bust your chops or anything, Sancho, honestly, just pointing out a weakness in your analogy. I wouldn't be a card-carrying English teacher if I didn't do that!

No worries, Qimi. My mother was an English teacher. And grammatically speaking, she was a tyrant. Also she was wicked-fast with a wooden spoon. My noggin still has dents in it from her thowcking me with that spoon for poor subject/verb agreement. As for vaccinations and national health policies - "Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up..."

Ah, what the heck. Since I seem to be doing quotes today (Charlie Daniels above in response to Mick's British politician - "he's a friend of them long-haired hippie-type pinko fags..."), I might as well keep going. I don't much like the idea of everybody playing fast and loose with handguns anymore than I like governments aiming nukes at each other. It's another analogy with some serious flaws, Qimi.

From Dr. Stangelove:

President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson, I find this very difficult to understand. I was under the impression that I was the only one in authority to order the use of nuclear weapons.

General "Buck" Turgidson: That's right, sir, you are the only person authorized to do so. And although I, uh, hate to judge before all the facts are in, it's beginning to look like, uh, General Ripper exceeded his authority.

...

General "Buck" Turgidson: Uh, we're, still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.

President Merkin Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.

General "Buck" Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.

President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you assured me there was no possibility of such a thing ever occurring!

General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

Not to mix metaphors or anything, but guns and nukes are similar in that once the cat's out of the bag, it's hard to stuff the genie back into the bottle.

[qimissung]

^ "I betcha he's even got a commie flag tacked up on the wall inside of his garage."



No worries, Qimi. My mother was an English teacher. And grammatically speaking, she was a tyrant. Also she was wicked-fast with a wooden spoon. My noggin still has dents in it from her thowcking me with that spoon for poor subject/verb agreement. As for vaccinations and national health policies - "Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up..."

Ah, what the heck. Since I seem to be doing quotes today (Charlie Daniels above in response to Mick's British politician - "he's a friend of them long-haired hippie-type pinko fags..."), I might as well keep going. I don't much like the idea of everybody playing fast and loose with handguns anymore than I like governments aiming nukes at each other. It's another analogy with some serious flaws, Qimi.

From Dr. Stangelove:



Not to mix metaphors or anything, but guns and nukes are similar in that once the cat's out of the bag, it's hard to stuff the genie back into the bottle.

Ah, Dr. Strangelove and genies. I approve, Sancho. If we don't figure out a way to stuff those two imposters back in their proverbial bottles, that cat in the bag is going to be screeching like a banshee. And it might be the end of the world as we know it.

OT, Sancho, have you ever thought of writing? You don't post much on here, but you certainly seem to have a gift for written humor which is incredible difficult. Heck, maybe you could be the next Mark Twain or Terry Southern.

[Sancho]

Thanks, Qimi. I do like to fool around with words, but I'm way too busy and not nearly disciplined enough to try to publish anything. And, hey, I won't never be no Micky Spillane. I'll admit, though, it's a thrill for me when I get somebody on this site to laugh. Also, from time to time, it's fun to get under somebody's skin. But I swear I had no intention of getting Juniper and her mom to arguing about gun control in the USA on Christmas day. Sheesh!

[qimissung]

You just got lucky on that one I guess, lol.

Um, hey, Juniper, if you ever re-visit this thread, can you explain why, exactly, that rather innocuous statement by Sancho provoked an argument on gun control between you and your mother? Inquiring minds, and all that.

[prendrelemick]

Had a few days off to think about this issue. I've been following Michael Moore's twitterings - and the contrary replies - and reading various articles published by Americans. Mostly to find a rationale for keeping things as they are.

The consensus seems to be that the NRA position that more guns are needed to keep people safe is ridiculous and insults the intellegence. - like drilling a hole in a sinking boat to let the water out. But there are some more thoughtful articles from those against gun control. Michael Moore, inspite of his reputation, pointed out that it was only the arrival of armed police that ended the Newtown massacre, an instance where guns did save lives. He also notes the the state of Connecticut has some of the strongest gun control laws in America.

What came over most strongly was the need to change attitudes towards the gun in America. Gun control can be a start but the problem is deeper rooted. Violence itself is deeper rooted compared with the rest of the world. Americans both fear violence and venerate it as the ultimate answer. Dirty Harry's magnum sets the world to rights.

I don't like cutting and pasteing large amounts of text, but this thread has about run its course and this extract (from Michael Moore again) seems pertinant and takes the debate on to the next step. He outlines 3 reasons for the violence and fear of violance rife in America.

". POVERTY. If there's one thing that separates us from the rest of the developed world, it's this. 50 million of our people live in poverty. One in five Americans goes hungry at some point during the year. The majority of those who aren't poor are living from paycheck to paycheck. There's no doubt this creates more crime. Middle class jobs prevent crime and violence. (If you don't believe that, ask yourself this: If your neighbor has a job and is making $50,000/year, what are the chances he's going to break into your home, shoot you and take your TV? Nil.)

2. FEAR/RACISM. We're an awfully fearful country considering that, unlike most nations, we've never been invaded. (No, 1812 wasn't an invasion. We started it.) Why on earth would we need 300 million guns in our homes? I get why the Russians might be a little spooked (over 20 million of them died in World War II). But what's our excuse? Worried that the Indians from the casino may go on the warpath? Concerned that the Canadians seem to be amassing too many Tim Horton's donut shops on both sides of the border?

No. It's because too many white people are afraid of black people. Period. The vast majority of the guns in the U.S. are sold to white people who live in the suburbs or the country. When we fantasize about being mugged or home invaded, what's the image of the perpetrator in our heads? Is it the freckled-face kid from down the street – or is it someone who is, if not black, at least poor?

I think it would be worth it to a) do our best to eradicate poverty and re-create the middle class we used to have, and b) stop promoting the image of the black man as the boogeyman out to hurt you. Calm down, white people, and put away your guns.

3. THE "ME" SOCIETY. I think it's the every-man-for-himself ethos of this country that has put us in this mess and I believe it's been our undoing. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! You're not my problem! This is mine!

Clearly, we are no longer our brother's and sister's keeper. You get sick and can't afford the operation? Not my problem. The bank has foreclosed on your home? Not my problem. Can't afford to go to college? Not my problem.

And yet, it all sooner or later becomes our problem, doesn't it? Take away too many safety nets and everyone starts to feel the impact. Do you want to live in that kind of society, one where you will then have a legitimate reason to be in fear? I don't."

[Emil Miller]

Had a few days off to think about this issue. I've been following Michael Moore's twitterings - and the contrary replies - and reading various articles published by Americans. Mostly to find a rationale for keeping things as they are.

The consensus seems to be that the NRA position that more guns are needed to keep people safe is ridiculous and insults the intellegence. - like drilling a hole in a sinking boat to let the water out. But there are some more thoughtful articles from those against gun control. Michael Moore, inspite of his reputation, pointed out that it was only the arrival of armed police that ended the Newtown massacre, an instance where guns did save lives. He also notes the the state of Connecticut has some of the strongest gun control laws in America.

What came over most strongly was the need to change attitudes towards the gun in America. Gun control can be a start but the problem is deeper rooted. Violence itself is deeper rooted compared with the rest of the world. Americans both fear violence and venerate it as the ultimate answer. Dirty Harry's magnum sets the world to rights.

I don't like cutting and pasteing large amounts of text, but this thread has about run its course and this extract (from Michael Moore again) seems pertinant and takes the debate on to the next step. He outlines 3 reasons for the violence and fear of violance rife in America.

". POVERTY. If there's one thing that separates us from the rest of the developed world, it's this. 50 million of our people live in poverty. One in five Americans goes hungry at some point during the year. The majority of those who aren't poor are living from paycheck to paycheck. There's no doubt this creates more crime. Middle class jobs prevent crime and violence. (If you don't believe that, ask yourself this: If your neighbor has a job and is making $50,000/year, what are the chances he's going to break into your home, shoot you and take your TV? Nil.)

2. FEAR/RACISM. We're an awfully fearful country considering that, unlike most nations, we've never been invaded. (No, 1812 wasn't an invasion. We started it.) Why on earth would we need 300 million guns in our homes? I get why the Russians might be a little spooked (over 20 million of them died in World War II). But what's our excuse? Worried that the Indians from the casino may go on the warpath? Concerned that the Canadians seem to be amassing too many Tim Horton's donut shops on both sides of the border?

No. It's because too many white people are afraid of black people. Period. The vast majority of the guns in the U.S. are sold to white people who live in the suburbs or the country. When we fantasize about being mugged or home invaded, what's the image of the perpetrator in our heads? Is it the freckled-face kid from down the street – or is it someone who is, if not black, at least poor?

I think it would be worth it to a) do our best to eradicate poverty and re-create the middle class we used to have, and b) stop promoting the image of the black man as the boogeyman out to hurt you. Calm down, white people, and put away your guns.

3. THE "ME" SOCIETY. I think it's the every-man-for-himself ethos of this country that has put us in this mess and I believe it's been our undoing. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! You're not my problem! This is mine!

Clearly, we are no longer our brother's and sister's keeper. You get sick and can't afford the operation? Not my problem. The bank has foreclosed on your home? Not my problem. Can't afford to go to college? Not my problem.

And yet, it all sooner or later becomes our problem, doesn't it? Take away too many safety nets and everyone starts to feel the impact. Do you want to live in that kind of society, one where you will then have a legitimate reason to be in fear? I don't."

Interesting that Moore suggests that when people earn $50.000 per year they are not going to steal other people's property.
Interesting because, far from the average citizen earning that amount, according to these figures (always open to interpretation of course)it corresponds to the amount that every person in the USA owes if the Public Debt is divided among them.



The Outstanding Public Debt as of 31 Dec 2012 at 01:16:57 PM GMT is:


$16,352,150,369,302.63

The estimated population of the United States is 314,151,703
so each citizen's share of this debt is $52,051.89.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$3.82 billion per day since September 28, 2007!

[prendrelemick]

Now that is scary.

We used to say that whatever the debt , America is good for it

[Volya]

prendrelemick, I think that Moore is definitely right in saying all this. Sadly it seems to me that if you tried to solve those three problems, there will inevitably be more crazed idiots screaming 'Communism! Socialism! The horror!'

[Emil Miller]

Now that is scary.

We used to say that whatever the debt , America is good for it

And so they were, the trouble is that they continued saying it long after it had lost its meaning.

[prendrelemick]

prendrelemick, I think that Moore is definitely right in saying all this. Sadly it seems to me that if you tried to solve those three problems, there will inevitably be more crazed idiots screaming 'Communism! Socialism! The horror!'

You are quite right. Also, it's all very well saying - all we need to do is solve poverty! Like that is going to be easy.