The right to bear arms

[tonywalt]

As I believe I pointed out earlier, these massacres do not make up the majority of crime in the world. What they are is shocking and makes the head-lines, but mass shootings like these really should not be the main issue when deciding on gun law, or any law for that matter. What is more important, saving twenty lives in one event, or saving hundreds over time.

And if we are trying to use these events as the reason for change in law, surely we must look at the Bath School massacre, the deadliest school massacre in the US. The killer did not use guns, he used bombs. Bombs are very easy to make at home (all it takes is a google search to find out how), do you suggest we ban the sale of all products that can be used to make them?

Well, at least there is no 'right to bear bombs'!- but knowing some states.....

[Varenne Rodin]

I loved what TheFifthElement had to say about this.

A personal note about Texas: It stinks. It's a cattle factory place. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else. Cows jammed in with other cows spanning for miles in either direction off the interstate. Cow cities. It's like Texans want to advertise it. More cows than people, by a lot. There is no grass. No green. Packed on yellow musty dusty mud (I didn't know mud could be wet and dusty at the same time until Texas) in metal cubes in obscene heat, the cows scream and bash into each other. There are stacks of dead and dying cows all over the place. The stench is heavy. My nose's scent adaptation skills were no match for it. This isn't about the cows, although I did pity their terrible existences. Texas is a wasteland. It's HUGE, so one could argue that there are nice areas, but there are enormous stretches of nothing.

A person wouldn't want to drive through it at its widest point. I drove through as little of it as I could, but I couldn't avoid it entirely when I drove from Florida to California. I was stuck in it for a full day. It's the kind of place that makes movies about dirty, hillbilly serial killers seem very believable. I believe a person should not get lost in the Texas wastes. After so much nothing, horizon following horizon of identical yellow dirt slopes or flat land, there are towns peppered in. I had heard a lot about Amarillo. I assumed it was a substantial town of bustling activity to have gained the amount of note that it had. Instead, it seemed to be one mini mall running horizontal to the one main road I saw. If it had more than two roads, they were miles and miles from the town's(?) center. There were a few women dressed ridiculously, entering a Walmart. Women like Loka mentioned. God, guns, babies. Their hair was large and full of hairspray. They had spray tans and matching outfits and smug looks on their faces. I couldn't imagine what they did there, in that barren nothing of a place. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of Texas women become obsessed with the sport of catching a man.

My aunt and cousins lived there for most of their lives. They saw George W. Bush as some kind of deity. In the more densely populated areas, my cousins complained of severe gang activity in the schools, nothing to do, widespread poverty and squalor. A day of fun included drinking, mudding(?), and I don't know...mate seeking? Evolution may have come to a near stop in Texas. Austin and Huston are somewhat impressive insofar as they draw a lot of big business. There's a lot of crime, but they'll say please and thank you and they drive oh, so politely in traffic, and they are bat**** insane.

I have known some great people from Texas. A lot of smart people. The point I'm trying to make is that Texas should not be used as an example or a standard for anything outside of Texas. Texas is not indicative of life in greater America. They'll arm their teachers. They want to secede. They want to do away with critical thought. Whatever they're doing, it hasn't been working. Certainly, no one should adopt their suggestions for gun control. I feel bad for trashing it this way, but it's a marvel. Its charm is false. Stinky, puke inducing Texas.

[Babyguile]

I don't think many people will disagree that people have the right to weapons (given they are mentally sound adults).

Let me introduce you to the entire population of the United Kingdom. Giving any twat from the public a weapon that can kill a man in a split second is absolutely terrifying. I have the right not to live in an area where my neighbour can kill me if they've had a bad day.

Nineteen children killed is nineteen children too many. But for pro-gun people (most Americans) nineteen isn't a big enough number for them to give a damn. France, Britain, Germany, etc. manage to hold their government to account without using guns. Funny that. Tell me what is so special about America that the public needs to own guns.

[qimissung]

Yes, I live in Texas,but I'm from Oklahoma, although the point is moot concerning how people feel about gun control in either place. And if we're talking about feelings, you've also got Arkansas, and the whole west, Colorado, Wyoming, etc., where people also feel passionately about their guns. If you came here, it's entirely possible that you would like these people.As TonyWalt pointed out it is part of our national character, woven into it from the beginning.

Part of the problem is that they will not consider any compromise. We run into the same problem where women's rights are being eroded by passionate people on the right. I have lived in this part of the country all of my life. I never see guns nor have I ever seen anyone carrying them, nor have I ever been in a situation where a gun was needed. I have seen their negative impact in a secondary way. I work in a school, and while no one has ever brought one there, guns have impacted the lives of my students outside of school. A former student of mine was shot and killed last spring; another student was shot, but survived-this about five years ago; and one student lost a brother and three friends when a gang member leapt on top of the convertible they were in and shot them through the sun roof. None survived. Another man in Dallas, apparently he was on drugs, tried to break into a neighbor's house. The neighbor tried to shoot to scare him, but killed him. I'm sure there are many more stories, but those are the ones I know.

And there are other issues at stake here. Most of these school shootings are committed by young men, often with mental illnesses. I feel this is an area we neglect in the United States which has ramifications above and beyond this incident. We are not a terribly inclusive society. If you are different we are very glad to exclude you. One girl was quoted as saying that Adam Lanza didn't connect with the kids in her school. She didn't say that they tried to include him anyway. I think he was terribly, vastly lonely; the same seems to be true for the Aurora shooter. I do have sympathy for what brought these men to their breaking point. I would really like to see my country begin to address these issues,too.

And please don't forget, that there are already many laws in place concerning guns. And that someone who has a murderous impulse is not going to feel constrained by those laws.

Varenne and Babyguile, I understand you have strong opinions on this subject, but please remember to phrase these in a way that is not full of name calling or disrespect. Americans-and Texans-may be deeply misguided-but they are not evil.

[Lokasenna]

Let me introduce you to the entire population of the United Kingdom. Giving any twat from the public a weapon that can kill a man in a split second is absolutely terrifying. I have the right not to live in an area where my neighbour can kill me if they've had a bad day.

Agreed. Most people in the UK would not see it as a right to own guns. Following the Dunblane massacre, legislation was passed that essentially made the ownership of handguns illegal - a move that had a great deal of popular support at the time and since. Nor has there been any serious attempt since to decriminalise them.

If anyone, particularly in America, has never heard of the Dunblane massacre, and its following reforms, then I urge you to at least have a look at the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre - if nothing else, it shows that these terrible events can bring about change.

[tonywalt]

I loved what TheFifthElement had to say about this.

A personal note about Texas: It stinks. It's a cattle factory place. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else. Cows jammed in with other cows spanning for miles in either direction off the interstate. Cow cities. It's like Texans want to advertise it. More cows than people, by a lot. There is no grass. No green. Packed on yellow musty dusty mud (I didn't know mud could be wet and dusty at the same time until Texas) in metal cubes in obscene heat, the cows scream and bash into each other. There are stacks of dead and dying cows all over the place. The stench is heavy. My nose's scent adaptation skills were no match for it. This isn't about the cows, although I did pity their terrible existences. Texas is a wasteland. It's HUGE, so one could argue that there are nice areas, but there are enormous stretches of nothing.

A person wouldn't want to drive through it at its widest point. I drove through as little of it as I could, but I couldn't avoid it entirely when I drove from Florida to California. I was stuck in it for a full day. It's the kind of place that makes movies about dirty, hillbilly serial killers seem very believable. I believe a person should not get lost in the Texas wastes. After so much nothing, horizon following horizon of identical yellow dirt slopes or flat land, there are towns peppered in. I had heard a lot about Amarillo. I assumed it was a substantial town of bustling activity to have gained the amount of note that it had. Instead, it seemed to be one mini mall running horizontal to the one main road I saw. If it had more than two roads, they were miles and miles from the town's(?) center. There were a few women dressed ridiculously, entering a Walmart. Women like Loka mentioned. God, guns, babies. Their hair was large and full of hairspray. They had spray tans and matching outfits and smug looks on their faces. I couldn't imagine what they did there, in that barren nothing of a place. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of Texas women become obsessed with the sport of catching a man.

My aunt and cousins lived there for most of their lives. They saw George W. Bush as some kind of deity. In the more densely populated areas, my cousins complained of severe gang activity in the schools, nothing to do, widespread poverty and squalor. A day of fun included drinking, mudding(?), and I don't know...mate seeking? Evolution may have come to a near stop in Texas. Austin and Huston are somewhat impressive insofar as they draw a lot of big business. There's a lot of crime, but they'll say please and thank you and they drive oh, so politely in traffic, and they are bat**** insane.

I have known some great people from Texas. A lot of smart people. The point I'm trying to make is that Texas should not be used as an example or a standard for anything outside of Texas. Texas is not indicative of life in greater America. They'll arm their teachers. They want to secede. They want to do away with critical thought. Whatever they're doing, it hasn't been working. Certainly, no one should adopt their suggestions for gun control. I feel bad for trashing it this way, but it's a marvel. Its charm is false. Stinky, puke inducing Texas.

What about the Dallas Cowboy football cheerleaders?- SEE! - there's culture there.

(Austin has pockets of culture too - i've seen some good rock bands there)

[qimissung]

What about the Dallas Cowboy football cheerleaders?- SEE! - there's culture there.

(Austin has pockets of culture too - i've seen some good rock bands there)

Yes, hot pockets of culture.

I thought this was a thoughtful piece that explores the isolation of Nancy Lanza and her son.


http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/imagining_nancy_lanza/

[tonywalt]

Agreed. Most people in the UK would not see it as a right to own guns. Following the Dunblane massacre, legislation was passed that essentially made the ownership of handguns illegal - a move that had a great deal of popular support at the time and since. Nor has there been any serious attempt since to decriminalise them.

If anyone, particularly in America, has never heard of the Dunblane massacre, and its following reforms, then I urge you to at least have a look at the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre - if nothing else, it shows that these terrible events can bring about change.

It's all true, but Americans are not British. Dunblane tightened up something that was relatively tight.

[cafolini]

This is my weapon.
This is my gun.
This is for fighting.
This is for fun.

We need more gun control and more fun.

Gearge Bush proposed that having insurance for terrorism would end with it. It was one of the things that made sense.

Insurance for guns will probably do the same thing.

Not to have can be made profitable. And the profits will encourage better behavior and control. It was always that way.

[tonywalt]

This is my weapon.
This is my gun.
This is for fighting.
This is for fun.

We need more gun control and more fun.

Gearge Bush proposed that having insurance for terrorism would end with it. It was one of the things that made sense.

Insurance for guns will probably do the same thing.

Not to have can be made profitable. And the profits will encourage better behavior and control. It was always that way.

My favourite Public Service Commerical was the one of a person lighting up a joint then a voiceover "You are helping terrorism". It's fairly incredible what a large segment of the population can be sold.

[YesNo]

It seems that the most these teachers, even if armed, could have done was become a target for the killer giving their students a chance to escape and for others out of range to act. That is what I imagine they did.

We need to remove weapons that allow someone to rapidly target a group of children. This would give their caretakers a better chance to defend them.

[Emil Miller]

What about the Dallas Cowboy football cheerleaders?- SEE! - there's culture there.

(Austin has pockets of culture too - i've seen some good rock bands there)

You've just destroyed your own argument.

[Volya]

It seems that the most these teachers, even if armed, could have done was become a target for the killer giving their students a chance to escape and for others out of range to act. That is what I imagine they did.

Or they could've fired at the killer, thus delaying him and possibly scaring him off, if not outright killing him?

[Varenne Rodin]

I tried to say that Austin and Huston were the bright spots. The intent of my post was not to insult. Texans have some weird stuff to deal with; harsh environment, limited activities, poor educational system, old fashioned ways. Texas the PLACE is disgusting to me. This is not a remark about the people who have to live there, aside from saying that their views on gun control and women don't fully jive with the views of literate America. I don't want to be seen by the outside world the way people see Texans.

There is talk of implementing the armed teacher idea here in California, after Texas decided that was their solution. We can't take things happening in Texas and apply them to places outside of Texas. I don't want the state I live in to be influenced by that state, except maybe as an example of what not to do.

[qimissung]

Thanks for clarifying, Varenne. I think the idea of arming teachers is just an idea-at the moment anyway.