This is going to turn into The Neverending Story...
This is going to turn into The Neverending Story...
LOL so trueOriginally Posted by TurquoiseSunset
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
Indeed.
Enough said.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
It looks like it has ended.
Hooray!
Looks like everyone's made their point now. On to the next!
What about?Hooray!
Looks like everyone's made their point now. On to the next!
Heterosexuality?
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
What about?
Heterosexuality?In which case, I'll defend my position with a bunch of Bible verses, but you don't have to agree with me.
Hwæt! We Gar-Dena in geardagum,/Þeodcuninga þrum gefrunon,/hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,/ monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,/ egsode eorlas, syððan ærest wearð/ feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,/ weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,/ oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra/ofer hronrade hyran scolde,/gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs god cyning!
We really have not explored the Koranon gays, and I'm sure we all agree that it has to be done.
Oh no please let's not go there unless you want a fatwa descending on you for starting the whole thing I would be careful you never who is reading these forums.We really have not explored the Koran
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
While on the subject of homosexuality, I was wondering if other guys might have experienced this:
Me and an old friend of mine went down to the beach and since the spot was secluded and twas just us and much wine, we decided to swim naked. My friend is very handsome, actually that is not right, his face is pretty, but his true beauty is his body it is awing. It's sculpted and defined to perfection, and he enjoys showing of his body to other guys because the reaction is always the same and he is a vain creature. Anyways perfect body. So I was looking at him and I stared to think, I wish I could paint him in the nude. I was genuinely admiring his body is a purely aesthetic way. This would not have startled me if not for the fact that I realized I never have and do not think I am able to admire the female body as I admired his that day. When I look at a beautiful girl, my instinct is sexual, I have never thought I wish to paint her and portray her beauty, my thoughts are simpler and more bestial, I wish to **** her. When I think of a beautiful woman I never think of her by herself on a pedestal like some ancient statue, I think of me pleasuring myself with her, I am always in the image with her. But with him there was no lust in my thought, just an honest appreciation of something beautiful, which I believe I am incapable of doing with any woman as lust shall always prevent me from possessing solely an aesthetic eye towards a female body.
Any other guys know what I mean?
I have read only small sections of the Koran, and while I know homosexuality is no more acceptable in it than in the Torah/Bible - I don't know the details. So unless someone has some expertise on the mater.....We really have not explored the Koran
Maybe if you are with a girl long enough to get past the lust phase, you can see if you feel the same way about women when exposed to the same variables as men. Not that I'm judging your relationship habits.
I know a few girls who I admire aesthetically (the type that I would paint if I could paint) with no strong desire to **** them. Never had this experience with guys, but honestly, I don't have any male friends that fit this Adonis stature. I also have not seen any of them naked so there's that.
I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...
I guess this brings to think about the evidence of body image present amongst the Greeks and the Romans ie through the enormous amount of statues of naked bodies men mainly and women that one might well wonder the reasons behind it all.
Was it because the Greeks and Romans were body conscious and did not measure and so spend most of their time daydreaming of being one, a perfectly formed body which they could not have, and so produced thousands of perfect bodies under a form of a naked statue? was it a cry for help? were they really that nasty looking.
This is one possibilty not to be sniffed at.
Or was it because they liked nude men with muscly bodied and so took up statues making and painting just to get that bit closer to what they really fancied but could not have because of their supressed beliefs.
Last edited by cacian; 08-29-2012 at 04:07 PM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I guess this brings to think about the evidence of body image present amongst the Greeks and the Romans ie through the enormous amount of statues of naked bodies men mainly and women that one might well wonder the reasons behind it all.
Was it because the Greeks and Romans were body conscious and did not measure and so spend most of their time daydreaming of being one, a perfectly formed body which they could not have, and so produced thousands of perfect bodies under a form of a naked statue? was it a cry for help? were they really that nasty looking.
This is one possibilty not to be sniffed at.
Or was it because they liked nude men with muscly bodied and so took up statues making and painting just to get that bit closer to what they really fancied but could not have because of their supressed beliefs.
Cacian... it seems to me that it would make some sense to do a little research into these questions concerning history that seemingly intrigue you, rather than airing every ridiculous theory in public.
Over on "The Art Thread" I offered a somewhat in-depth history of the development of "the Nude" as a subject matter in Greco-Roman art:
I explored the development of the "nude" in art here:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=64250
Again, I would caution you against making suppositions concerning the thinking of another culture based upon your own biases, values, and beliefs... especially while wholly ignoring the history of the culture you are speaking of.
It is indeed true that the nude evolves as a major subject matter of art in Greek and Roman art to an extent greater than appears in other cultures. But it is not unique. You need only look to the art of India and the whole of Western art from the Renaissance to the present.
The "fixation" upon the nude human figure as a major subject matter in Western art truly does begin with the Greeks... and owes much to the Greek belief... beginning especially in Sparta... that the human body was the most aesthetically beautiful of forms, and that it represented some ideal rooted in proportions, ratios, mathematics, motion, etc... and that the ideal toward which all sophisticated men should aspire is the combination of the perfect mind and perfect body. The average Greek youth was far more likely to have attained this physical ideal, than the average modern Westerner due to the continual physical exertions of labor. As such... the nudes in Greek art are most definitely not cries for help or representations of an unattainable ideal. Our own culture is far more guilty of such in the form of unnaturally thin models employed in fashion magazines, while in reality, many in our culture are overweight and out of shape to to our access to excess in food and sedentary lifestyle.
I say "men" specifically, because this concept was applied initially to men, and not women. The Greek ideal was an intelligent, educated athlete/warrior. Greek men frequently exercised in the nude and Greek athletes competed in the nude. The very idea that a man should be ashamed of his naked body was imagined as a sign of lowly barbarism. With the exception of the Spartans, women were excluded from displays of public nudity... or even from attending events at which they might see nude men exercising or engaged in sporting competitions.
This had nothing to do with the sexual preferences of the Greeks, although certainly homosexuality existed then as much as it has at any time and in any culture. We should recognize that the institution of what later became derogatorily termed "Greek Love"... the idea so earnestly celebrated in the Odes of Pindar and in the dialogs of Plato, in which the notion is put forth that the love between two young men is nobler and more "natural" than between a man and a woman was not inherently sexual. It could also simply refer to a profound friendship between men... one that might be strengthened by having shared the intense experiences of battle.
The bias against the display of female nudity was primarily an issue of decorum. Allowing women to participate in events of public nudity... even only as observers... was imagined as inherently bringing sexuality and vulgarity into something "ideal" and sacred. Wives, mothers, and sisters should not be seen nude in public... while courtesans and prostitutes were not the class of women that would be allowed to participate in sacred rituals or revered sporting events... nor commemorated in art. Even the idea of a nude Venus... the goddess of love and sex... was thought of as heresy. This was echoed throughout Greek society. Men habitually wore nothing more than a short cloak and exercised in the nude, while women went about draped from head to foot. Their role in the culture was nearly wholly limited to the domestic. Again, the Spartan women were the sole exception, and they scandalized the rest of Greece by showing their thighs during sporting competitions.
No female nude appears in art until the 5th century BCE... and these are largely crude in comparison to the male nudes of the era, and probably the product of lesser provincial artists.
By the end of the 5th century, sculptors began to exhibit a mastery of the female figure... but still avoided the heresy of the female nude (while reveling in it) through the invention of the draped nude. It is here, prior to Praxiteles, that we must search to find the female nude in art. Through employing a light, semi-transparent, clinging garment (wet drapery) the artist was able to at once conceal and reveal the body. As Kenneth Clark states, "The section of a limb as it swells and subsides may be delineated precisely or left to the imagination; parts of the body that are plastically satisfying can be emphasized, those less interesting can be concealed; and awkward transitions can be made smooth by the flow of line." The wet drapery is perhaps best known from the masterful figures from the Parthenon (part of the Elgin Marbles).
The representation of the female figure catches up with those of the male in the late 5th/4th century B.C. The so-called Venus Genetrix fully reveals the beauty of the female body through its drapery...
From the time of the great Greek master, Praxiteles (mid-4th century BCE) onward, the female nude becomes as common... and often far more common than the male nude in subsequent Greek art.
The Romans, whose art and aesthetic ideals were modeled upon the Greeks... and often employed the efforts of Greek artists, continued the tradition of celebrating the naked human body... both in life and in art. Their sculpture and painting is again just as likely... or more-so... to celebrate the naked female body as the male. The nude conveyed any number of ideas: it could suggest vulnerability... and as such slaves and conquered enemies were often displayed as naked. The nude could also suggest the perfection of the Gods, who were above any need for clothing. Of course nudity also alluded to sexuality... and the Romans... even more than the Greeks... openly celebrated human sexuality in their art and literature.
The loss of the mastery of the anatomy of the human form as seen in the art of the Middle Ages is owed directly to the Christian rejection of Greco-Roman ideals that glorified the "here and now"... the physical reality of the human body (and especially sexuality). The focus of Medieval art was upon the non-physical aspects of humanity... the soul or spirit as opposed to the body. The celebration of the human figure returns to Western art with the Renaissance and the development of Neo-Platonic Ideals in which intellectuals and theologians of the era struggled to create a balance between Greco-Roman ideals and those of Christianity.
...was it because they liked nude men with muscly bodied and so took up statues making and painting just to get that bit closer to what they really fancied but could not have because of their supressed beliefs.
Sexuality is certainly one of the major driving forces behind art... although any art student can tell you that there is a distinct gap between the outsider's fantasies of the imagined sexual relationship between the artist and his model, and the somewhat less exciting reality. Most artist's models fall far short of being anyone's sexual fantasy. Art students are forever subjected to learning to draw the human body from middle-aged (and older), overweight, and flaccid models that are far from inspiring thoughts of an erotic nature. It is little wonder that so many student artists-in-the-making abandon all thoughts of drawing or painting the nude, and turn to landscape, still life, and abstraction. It should also be noted that one is also far more likely to be able to attain one's desire of beautiful lovers (male or female) through the attainment of wealth (and thus majoring in business or law) than through the long, difficult, arduous, and often financially unstable path of the artist. Even in the instances in which the model is indeed attractive... and maybe even the mistress of the artist... the actual artistic process... while not entirely devoid of moments of erotic tension... is far more mundane... professional... focused upon the artistic efforts... than is suggested in some fantasy.
I should also note that the Greeks and Romans were far from being having to suppress their sexual desires as a result of their religious beliefs, and far more open and celebratory of human sexuality than even our culture.
Last edited by stlukesguild; 08-31-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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Possibly the longest and most articulate weary sigh in the history of LitNet.I guess this brings to think about the evidence of body image present amongst the Greeks and the Romans ie through the enormous amount of statues of naked bodies men mainly and women that one might well wonder the reasons behind it all.
Was it because the Greeks and Romans were body conscious and did not measure and so spend most of their time daydreaming of being one, a perfectly formed body which they could not have, and so produced thousands of perfect bodies under a form of a naked statue? was it a cry for help? were they really that nasty looking.
This is one possibilty not to be sniffed at.
Or was it because they liked nude men with muscly bodied and so took up statues making and painting just to get that bit closer to what they really fancied but could not have because of their supressed beliefs.
Cacian... it seems to me that it would make some sense to do a little research into these questions concerning history that seemingly intrigue you, rather than airing every ridiculous theory in public.
Over on "The Art Thread" I offered a somewhat in-depth history of the development of "the Nude" as a subject matter in Greco-Roman art:
I explored the development of the "nude" in art here:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=64250
Again, I would caution you against making suppositions concerning the thinking of another culture based upon your own biases, values, and beliefs... especially while wholly ignoring the history of the culture you are speaking of.
It is indeed true that the nude evolves as a major subject matter of art in Greek and Roman art to an extent greater than appears in other cultures. But it is not unique. You need only look to the art of India and the whole of Western art from the Renaissance to the present.
The "fixation" upon the nude human figure as a major subject matter in Western art truly does begin with the Greeks... and owes much to the Greek belief... beginning especially in Sparta... that the human body was the most aesthetically beautiful of forms, and that it represented some ideal rooted in proportions, ratios, mathematics, motion, etc... and that the ideal toward which all sophisticated men should aspire is the combination of the perfect mind and perfect body. The average Greek youth was far more likely to have attained this physical ideal, than the average modern Westerner due to the continual physical exertions of labor. As such... the nudes in Greek art are most definitely not cries for help or representations of an unattainable ideal. Our own culture is far more guilty of such in the form of unnaturally thin models employed in fashion magazines.
I say "men" specifically, because this concept was applied initially to men, and not women. The Greek ideal was an intelligent, educated athlete/warrior. Greek men frequently exercised in the nude and Greek athletes competed in the nude. The very idea that a man should be ashamed of his naked body was imagined as a sign of lowly barbarism. With the exception of the Spartans, women were excluded from displays of public nudity... or even from attending events at which they might see nude men exercising or engaged in sporting competitions.
This had nothing to do with the sexual preferences of the Greeks, although certainly homosexuality existed then as much as it has at any time and in any culture. We should recognize that the institution of what later became derogatorily termed "Greek Love"... the idea so earnestly celebrated in the Odes of Pindar and in the dialogs of Plato, in which the notion is put forth that the love between two young men is nobler and more "natural" than between a man and a woman was not inherently sexual. It could also simply refer to a profound friendship between men... one that might be strengthened by having shared the intense experiences of battle.
The bias against the display of female nudity was primarily an issue of decorum. Allowing women to participate in events of public nudity... even only as observers... was imagined as inherently bringing sexuality and vulgarity into something "ideal" and sacred. Wives, mothers, and sisters should not be seen nude in public... while courtesans and prostitutes were not the class of women that would be allowed to participate in sacred rituals or revered sporting events... nor commemorated in art. Even the idea of a nude Venus... the goddess of love and sex... was thought of as heresy. This was echoed throughout Greek society. Men habitually wore nothing more than a short cloak and exercised in the nude, while women went about draped from head to foot. Their role in the culture was nearly wholly limited to the domestic. Again, the Spartan women were the sole exception, and they scandalized the rest of Greece by showing their thighs during sporting competitions.
No female nude appears in art until the 5th century BCE... and these are largely crude in comparison to the male nudes of the era, and probably the product of lesser provincial artists.
By the end of the 5th century, sculptors began to exhibit a mastery of the female figure... but still avoided the heresy of the female nude (while reveling in it) through the invention of the draped nude. It is here, prior to Praxiteles, that we must search to find the female nude in art. Through employing a light, semi-transparent, clinging garment (wet drapery) the artist was able to at once conceal and reveal the body. As Kenneth Clark states, "The section of a limb as it swells and subsides may be delineated precisely or left to the imagination; parts of the body that are plastically satisfying can be emphasized, those less interesting can be concealed; and awkward transitions can be made smooth by the flow of line." The wet drapery is perhaps best known from the masterful figures from the Parthenon (part of the Elgin Marbles).
The representation of the female figure catches up with those of the male in the late 5th/4th century B.C. The so-called Venus Genetrix fully reveals the beauty of the female body through its drapery...
From the time of the great Greek master, Praxiteles (mid-4th century BCE) onward, the female nude becomes as common... and often far more common than the male nude in subsequent Greek art.
The Romans, whose art and aesthetic ideals were modeled upon the Greeks... and often employed the efforts of Greek artists, continued the tradition of celebrating the naked human body... both in life and in art. Their sculpture and painting is again just as likely... or more-so... to celebrate the naked female body as the male. The nude conveyed any number of ideas: it could suggest vulnerability... and as such slaves and conquered enemies were often displayed as naked. The nude could also suggest the perfection of the Gods, who were above any need for clothing. Of course nudity also alluded to sexuality... and the Romans... even more than the Greeks... openly celebrated human sexuality in their art and literature.
The loss of the mastery of the anatomy of the human form as seen in the art of the Middle Ages is owed directly to the Christian rejection of Greco-Roman ideals that glorified the "here and now"... the physical reality of the human body (and especially sexuality). The focus of Medieval art was upon the non-physical aspects of humanity... the soul or spirit as opposed to the body. The celebration of the human figure returns to Western art with the Renaissance and the development of Neo-Platonic Ideals in which intellectuals and theologians of the era struggled to create a balance between Greco-Roman ideals and those of Christianity.
...was it because they liked nude men with muscly bodied and so took up statues making and painting just to get that bit closer to what they really fancied but could not have because of their supressed beliefs.
Sexuality is certainly one of the major driving forces behind art... although any art student can tell you that there is a distinct gap between the fantasies of the artist and his model and the reality. Most artist's models fall far short of being anyone's sexual fantasy. One is also far more likely to be able to attain one's desire of beautiful lovers (male or female) through the attainment of wealth than through the long, difficult, arduous, and often financially unstable path of the artist. Even in the instances in which the model is indeed attractive... and maybe even the mistress of the artist... the actual artistic process... while not entirely devoid of moments of erotic tension... is far more mundane... professional... focused upon the artistic efforts... than is suggested in some fantasy. I should also note that the Greeks and Romans were far from being having to suppress their sexual desires as a result of their religious beliefs, and far more open and celebratory of human sexuality than even our culture.
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