Doesn't mean I can't try. I would actually reverse your metaphor: it is not about damming the river, but breaking the dam apart. You could explode it, and have all the run-off consequences, or you can remove it log by log,Originally Posted by mona amon
I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...
I have seen very few conversations as one sided as this one. But since it is such an emotionally charged topic, each person are going to believe what they want to anyway. Is homosexuality natural? I guess one would have to define natural. The majority of the contributors here believe that everything came about by accident instead of design. That is a factor in this discussion.
Is homosexuality right or wrong? That can't be decided in this forum.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Well it depends what you mean by natural.
Does natural mean spontaneous unplanned afeeling or a desire?
If natural tick all the boxes of positive mutual thinking then it is by definition natural.
What is not however natural is to negate others dictate or poke fun or get involved in other people's affairs wiht those doing something they feel very natural about.
It is not natural to tell others it is not natural what they are happily doing.
Last edited by cacian; 08-20-2012 at 02:53 PM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
Bullying comes natural to some.
I do not, nor ever have condoned any type of bullying. Just because someone feels that something is natural to them, it doesn't make it acceptable behavior.
I happily believe in God. Is that natural? Because I am often told on this site that my belief is illogical, or even stupid.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
That is where I do not understand where you come in in terms of them.
If they are doing something they feel passionate about why then should you interfer?
They are not invading your territory dictating how you should behave and yet you think you can put a stigma on the way they are.
I have not got it in me to interfer in people's lives let alone their private lives and yet you feel you have a say on their lives.
Explain how a gay person if affecting your immediat happiness future and life?
God is somwhere and is in no way involved in this because he does not live amongst us.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I really hope you’re not lumping me in with this statement. I try not use the Bible to accuse or demean (I think is the word you meant). If I seem to, it’s unintentional and is usually a person’s reaction to the verse itself (and likely aided by experience with religious denominations). Please be careful to not confuse me with others who do attack just because we quote from the same Book. There are a relatively small number of Christians in this world who do not engage in such abhorrent behavior, but most never hear of us probably because we don’t have a “headquarters” (for biblical reasons). I also think no one hears of us because we don't attack.
This is an excellent analogy. I am naturally prone to fits of rage and envy, and I do my best to curtail that part of my personality. Though I wouldn’t go so far as to say that someone who is gay engages in unacceptable behavior unless they profess to be a true Christian.Bullying comes natural to some.
I do not, nor ever have condoned any type of bullying. Just because someone feels that something is natural to them, it doesn't make it acceptable behavior.
Last edited by Shea; 08-20-2012 at 04:22 PM.
Hwæt! We Gar-Dena in geardagum,/Þeodcuninga þrum gefrunon,/hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,/ monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,/ egsode eorlas, syððan ærest wearð/ feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,/ weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,/ oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra/ofer hronrade hyran scolde,/gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs god cyning!
So it shouldn't be discussed, then?
Just as with the word "natural," I guess one would have to define the word "often," no?
Hi Shea absolutely nothing against you at all. That was as a response to Charles.
You are as much entitled to your feelings then I am to mine.
This does not mean we are to stand against each other as enemies because we happen to feel or think differently. One thing neither of us must not forget whilst we set out to talk and discuss our differences in any topic it does not make immune from it.
Who is to say that tomorrow you and I have children or grand children who grow up to be gay. One must never loose touch with reality. It is fine to have different views but it is not fine to impose those views on those who do not share them.
At the end of the day our differences mustnot drive us to ruin because we are all humans and hurt in very similar regardless of what we think.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
Try not to use phrases that you don't understand, especially ones as overused and hackneyed as that one. You're not going to address a single thing, are you? Avoidance. You've got nothing to respond with, so your choices are that you can either say "meh, what's a few extra hundred youth suicides?" or you can avoid the issue and pretend that you still have the moral highground. You've clearly made your decision (and that would be the cowardly one you've chosen there, to each their own), so I'm going to axe this whole headache. But hey, at least you were polite throughout, that's VERY important.
*walkingawaymumblebloodywasteoftimemumblemumble*
Um, yes it does, when the passage you're waving at them is "law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching." That's anti-homosexual, I can't understand how you can say otherwise. Also, I doubt he'd be your "gay friend" for much longer...
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 08-20-2012 at 05:28 PM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
~
W a r n i n g
Please do not discuss each other but the topic at hand.
Off-topic and/or personalised posts will be removed without further notice.
~
~
"It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
~
I'm pretty sure Shea explained her mindset quite thoroughly. I think it's time to leave her alone, because any answer she gives won't be good enough, either because you perceive her to not answer you in full, or because you dislike the answer. Hell, you'd probably be angry if she gave you the exact answer you wanted, because then you wouldn't have an excuse to be so combative. It's getting old, honestly.
Plus, you can't just bash her for avoiding a question. We all do that. You've done in it this thread, Juniper.
Last edited by Mutatis-Mutandis; 08-20-2012 at 06:02 PM.
Thank you Scher!
Okay then, enlighten me.Try not to use phrases that you don't understand
That doesn’t make it untrue.especially ones as overused and hackneyed as that one.
I’ve got plenty to respond with, but would just be copying and pasting things I’ve already said and I’m done with that.You're not going to address a single thing, are you? Avoidance. You've got nothing to respond with
Argumentum ad hominem, Argumentum ad nauseam, Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Dicto simpliciter, and straw-manso you choices are that you can either say "meh, what's a few extra hundred youth suicides?" or you can avoid the issue and pretend that you still have the moral highground.
Thanks Mutatis
Hwæt! We Gar-Dena in geardagum,/Þeodcuninga þrum gefrunon,/hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,/ monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,/ egsode eorlas, syððan ærest wearð/ feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,/ weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,/ oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra/ofer hronrade hyran scolde,/gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs god cyning!
Shea. I am happy that there is a "kinder and gentler" strain of Christianity, but I would be surprised if 99% describe themselves as anything other than kinder and gentler.
I would ask Shea what she would do if one of her kids was gay - besides praying real hard? Hhhm, I would say there would be a bit more finesse of The Situation -a bit more pro-active effort.
- Would you send the child to the minister so the minister could calmly and nicely explain the wonders of being staight and God's design etc...on and on?
- Would you discourage the gay feelings? (I just want to squash that standard new Christian argument that you "can have these feelings, but dont act on them". Sheeeeet, we all act on our sexual feelings as hard as we can, it's the most powerful drive beyond hunger and water. Hell, I would go without Shelter for a good $()@&
- When they begin dating same sex people(and they would) - will you accept them in your home? If not, the estrangement will be pronounced and painful for all.
My feeling is that you wouldn't go as far as trying to "convert" them to be heterosexual through direct measures-like those gay conversion people. I think you understand the damage of such actions.
So - what would you do besides the 'power of prayer'?
I agree Mutatis. I only saw your post after i posted.Thanks Mutatis
A straw-man is a fallacy set up to be defeated. Get it? Like, say I wanted you to decide that medicare was useless. I'd say something like "well, the waitlists are shorter if a country adopts medicare." That's the straw man, see? You're supposed to be contrary, say "actually no they aren't." Bingo bango, you've alligned yourself with the side I wanted you to, by attacking the straw man (ie. false target meant to be easily defeated) which I set out for you. In other words, you're using the phrase incorrectly.
Nice white hat, sucker. I can't believe you swallow the sentence "oh please respect my right to disagree with the gay lifestyle?" because she used the words "please" and "respect" and wraped it all up in sophistry. What an easy mark, you are.
She didn't answer a single thing that wasn't about her. I asked three questions repeatedly, in various ways, and made them as simple as possible.
1. What does "sin" portend?
2. Do you know that saying homosexuality is a sin gets people killed?
3. How do you justify that?
If you can find an answer to any of those questions in her posts, or any reference to suicide at all, I'll give you a sweet tart (spoiler: you can't - this thread is dead because we've not only gone off topic, we've avoided it like the bubonic plague). That's why I'm frustrated, because this has all been a waste of time, for weeks. It's not her opinion, I grew up with people who hate "fags" and "niggers" and all, but at least they're straight about it and don't drive me up the wall dancing around the issue (mixed metaphor? *sigh*).
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 08-20-2012 at 07:28 PM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
I love the straw man; it has won me many a wager (albeit these primary occurred in establishments of inebriation, so you could imagine the quality of debate.)
I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...
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