Are we vegetarians hypocrites?

[Nikhar]

Hi,
Firstly, I'd like to state that I'm a vegetarian and proud to be one. I sometimes talk to people about being non-veg (I usually refrain from doing so though since arguments tend to get heated). To which one reply I would invariably get is how on earth is it ok to kill plants and not ok to kill animals for food? One reply that I have read on this forum is that plants do not have feelings. But is that really true? And even if it is, is it justified? Killing someone who doesn't have feelings? Going by that argument, it should be correct to kill people in vegetative state (again a very debatable topic).

So, basically what I'm asking is if you are a vegetarian, how do you counter this question? You might say that you do not preach people about vegetarianism in the first place. But that is not what I mean. You are vegetarian for a reason. You do not wish to kill animals. But how do you feel about killing plants?

In this regard, it would seem that Jains are the only people who are not hypocrites. They don't eat anything that would kill plants (underground growing vegetables).

[kev67]

I think there's more of a problem if you're a vegetarian but not a vegan. Male calves and chicks are the unwanted byproduct of the dairy and egg industry. Chicks are killed by hypoxia, which is the probably the least painful way to go. The calves are no doubt slaughtered humanely, but it causes their mothers distress when they are taken away.

[Nikhar]

@kev
I live in India. I'm sure that cows aren't slaughtered here (not counting some weird cult maybe). Anyways, the milk we drink here comes directly from the farm, we don't drink packaged milk. And I don't eat eggs.
I have also decided that I won't be using leather products anymore.
Anyways, even if I was a vegan my question would still apply. Even vegans eat plants.

P.S.:- I love cows.. I think they are awesome. The affecftion cows have for their calves is something I have always found to be very heartwarming.

[YesNo]

Based on what I have heard from dairy farmers, cows seem to understand what is going on when the truck to take them away pulls up and one of them is led to it. It means that cow is being sent away permanently. Perhaps they even know it will be slaughtered. The mooing sound of the other cows seem to be a sort of goodbye. At least that is what I heard one dairy farmer tell me.

I think plants are sentient as well. Even the apple that the tree seems to want us to eat so that the seeds are dispersed may not be the way the microbial life in that apple wants to be treated. It may want to continue being an apple.

I don't think vegetarians are hypocrites. Being compassionate, however, should be for its own sake, not to try to make the world morally better. One isn't going to eliminate suffering by being a vegetarian. I don't think it is even good to have as a goal the complete elimination of suffering.

[Emil Miller]

One reply that I have read on this forum is that plants do not have feelings. But is that really true?

Plants are said not have a central nervous system and, if this is so, are most likely to be non-sentient.

Based on what I have heard from dairy farmers, cows seem to understand what is going on when the truck to take them away pulls up and one of them is led to it. It means that cow is being sent away permanently. Perhaps they even know it will be slaughtered. The mooing sound of the other cows seem to be a sort of goodbye. At least that is what I heard one dairy farmer tell me.

I don't know about cows mooing goodbye but it is certainly true that they sense that they are going to be slaughtered. I've witnessed this myself.

[Scheherazade]

Hi,
Firstly, I'd like to state that I'm a vegetarian and proud to be one.

Can you explain why you are proud?

I am not a vegetarian but would never consider myself "proud" to be a "carnivore".

[Madhuri]

@kev
I live in India. I'm sure that cows aren't slaughtered here (not counting some weird cult maybe). Anyways, the milk we drink here comes directly from the farm, we don't drink packaged milk. And I don't eat eggs.
I have also decided that I won't be using leather products anymore.
Anyways, even if I was a vegan my question would still apply. Even vegans eat plants.

P.S.:- I love cows.. I think they are awesome. The affecftion cows have for their calves is something I have always found to be very heartwarming.

Cow slaughter is illegal depending on the state (some are lenient and some are very strict like Gujarat) that you live in. It happens legally too (nothing to do with any cult), especially where the non-veg eating population is more, eg. Kerala (they really eat anything and everything) and some other southern states.

I have often come across the same question as you, and I really don't know what to say as a counter argument. Maybe because plants can't move and don't posses other senses it seems ok and animals can feel and humans can witness their pain, that it makes it difficult for vegetarians to eat animals.

However, in India, in general , being a vegetarian starts because of the religion and it is practiced so much so that it becomes a way of life and eventually a choice.

[Emil Miller]

I am not vegetarian and, although I do eat pâté and fish, I don't eat meat and will only eat duck as poultry and then only in restaurants. I don't make a fetish of food and look upon cooking and eating as an intrusion on my time. Apart from grilled fish twice a week for breakfast, I'm content to butter a piece of toast and my evening meal usually consists of a plate of noodles or beans on toast. I also eat salad twice weekly and although I don't care for fruit, I eat a small amount each week. Generally I find the whole cooking/eating thing a bore and food a necessity rather than a pleasure. I seldom feel hungry and, although it's only a personal perception, I'm sure that it's possible for people to do away with meat completely. I don't like the fact that animals are killed for their flesh ( it smacks of canabalism) but on the other other hand, if dairy cows are left out of the equation, those cattle that are bred for their meat would not exist at all if everyone were vegetarian.

[Nikhar]

Based on what I have heard from dairy farmers, cows seem to understand what is going on when the truck to take them away pulls up and one of them is led to it. It means that cow is being sent away permanently. Perhaps they even know it will be slaughtered. The mooing sound of the other cows seem to be a sort of goodbye. At least that is what I heard one dairy farmer tell me.

Oh yes, I'm sure they understand it. I mean, I don't know why some people consider them so dumb. I have seen how they get restless if someone takes their child or even comes near them sometimes.

Can you explain why you are proud?

I guess that would be because I am a very strict vegetarian. Sometimes I feel that I border onto insanity in this regard. I do not give into temptations.

Cow slaughter is illegal depending on the state (some are lenient and some are very strict like Gujarat) that you live in. It happens legally too (nothing to do with any cult), especially where the non-veg eating population is more, eg. Kerala (they really eat anything and everything) and some other southern states.

I have often come across the same question as you, and I really don't know what to say as a counter argument. Maybe because plants can't move and don't posses other senses it seems ok and animals can feel and humans can witness their pain, that it makes it difficult for vegetarians to eat animals.

However, in India, in general , being a vegetarian starts because of the religion and it is practiced so much so that it becomes a way of life and eventually a choice.

Oh yeah... had heard about Kerala. And true about vegetarian beginnig because of religion. I was brought up as a vegetarian and now I'm vegetarian by choice. Maybe thats why I am proud.

I don't like the fact that animals are killed for their flesh ( it smacks of canabalism) .

I often ask my non vegetarian friends how non-vegetarianism is unlike cannibalism. To which they'd laugh and say that they wouldn't mind eating humans either. I guess they say that 'cause they don't have an answer and they laugh it off.

Regarding the food thing, I love food. :P

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

How is it not unlike cannibalism? Do you guys know how to use a dictionary?

[YesNo]

Oh yes, I'm sure they understand it. I mean, I don't know why some people consider them so dumb. I have seen how they get restless if someone takes their child or even comes near them sometimes.

That is true of the swans the town home association brings in to the artificial pond to keep the geese away. When they have their chicks, I usually detour my walk around them. There is no point in tempting their defensiveness.

If "sentient" means having a central nervous system, as Emil Miller suggests, then plants aren't sentient, but who knows? Vines seem to "know" where there is something to wrap themselves around so they seem to have some sort of brainless brain. Looking at the dozen or so plants in the room I am in now, they don't look all that smart. No doubt their opinion of me isn't any better.

I was surprised to hear that Kerala in southern India had a population that wasn't strictly vegetarian. On a business trip I went to a restaurant which featured the food of southern India. It was all vegetarian (so the menu said) and tasted great. Unfortunately, such restaurants aren't common where I live. Although I'm not a vegetarian, since I eat whatever is served, generally I don't eat meat if I have a choice in the matter and I could probably live quite happily eating just that southern Indian food.

[OrphanPip]

If "sentient" means having a central nervous system, as Emil Miller suggests, then plants aren't sentient, but who knows? Vines seem to "know" where there is something to wrap themselves around so they seem to have some sort of brainless brain. Looking at the dozen or so plants in the room I am in now, they don't look all that smart. No doubt their opinion of me isn't any better.

You don't need a nervous system to direct movement, bacteria can find food in fluids just by a rough taxis system that makes them tumble/swim more often when a certain chemical is more/less concentrated. They are only capable of two kinds of movement, but because of the way it works they can tend towards things that are good for them and away from toxins. And it's entirely mechanical.

Anyway, we know animals suffer, we are reasonably sure plants don't suffer (in terms of pain), so there's no reason to think they are equivalent. Also, basic chemistry and biology will tell you that more plants have to die to get the same amount of energy out of a cow than to get the energy out of the plants. This is because the cow uses the energy from their food for living and not simply adding edible bits to itself, so energy is ultimately loss from the food chain in the form of heat. So, it is technically impossible to kill less plants by eating meat, even if plants feel pain you kill less of them (in terms of mass) by being a vegetarian.

[YesNo]

Good point about plants, OrphanPip. If they suffer, you make more of them suffer by eating meat than by eating the plants directly. Personally, I think they also taste better as plants than as meat. In spite of all that, I still eat meat when it is served.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I've never found vegetarians to be huge hypocrites. I mean. I'd call one that if I saw them wearing leather or something. Some of them can be obnoxious, though, getting all high and mighty and looking down on people who eat meat.

[Delta40]

Well vegetarians all have something in common with Hitler...