Why does a good God promote suffering?

[JamCrackers]

Yes, the 'God' does/would make suffering. Honestly, pretty much everyone already knows this. This whole range of issues only exist in contrast. If everyone was super, no one would be. To love everyone is to love no one. All joy is no joy at all. The concept of a warm day or a sunny day requires cold rainy days. True story: one of the greatest enlightening moments of my life. While shopping, I turned a corner to come face to face with a deformed woman. Born deformed, her right eye was lower at about her cheek area. She did not wear a mask. When we met, I had never ever seen anything to tragic, so I hurriedly looked away. I did not look away fast enough not to see her pity. She pitied me and rightly so. Since then, when I hear beautiful women complain that they can't face life without makeup or breast implants, I think of that woman. Many would deny it in themselves, their ever so deep weakness for life. She was iron strength, unafraid and unashamed to face the world as it is. Strength only exists next to weakness, pleasure next to pain. I actively seek the STRENGTH of the deformed, the suffering, because they are more human than me, not less. Granted the full powers of God, I would not take away any of it. Without adversity, life would be utterly empty and meaningless. Adversity is the mother of all invention. All virtues are contrasts of vices. A detail that most people choose to blot out is that we are not running out of people. Our populations will continue to grow until we choke ourselves. If anything, we have too little suffering; too few appreciate life as it is. Without villains, BATMAN is just Bruce Wayne the playboy. Sheep need wolves and wolves need sheep. This is the circle of life and it is ALL good.

[Eleanor62]

God doesn't promote suffering but he does allow it.

[Paulclem]

Although I find the title of this thread unnecessarily provocative - perhaps that was the intention - it does point to an interesting and really unanswered question: what is God's relationship to a world in which suffering and evil occur, bad things happen to good people, and there is no clear explanation of why. Is this because it is a matter of faith, and therefore unexplainable to someone without such faith or belief, or is it that the matter is unclear to Christians?

[Pendragon]

did u read the book i mentioned in the thread mysticism ? in which author proved the existence of the God with an externaly objective scientific reason.




God bless you

Yes this is proof to a person inclined to believe in God in the first place, but hardly an argument that a staunch atheist or agnostic would accept.

Search back along my posts to where there was a thread going on Creation VS Evolution. I made quite a few valid scientific arguments about the extreme amount of coincidences required to make one creature the way it is, and then how large the number would be against everything happening by chance. Some accepted the argument, some very pointedly told me that any chance was better than belief that God even existed, let alone created the world. Bottom line: People who believe in God do not require proof, everything in the world from the sky above to the leg on the tiniest insect reflects the hand of God. To those who cannot accept the existence of God, if an angel appeared to them, nothing the angel could say or do would convince them.

God bless

[JamCrackers]

I see the same issue across such a wide range of topics. Someone asked if they could be Christian and Buddhist, Hebrew Torah Creationism vs assorted evolution where no human groups currently evolve; that only happens to animals. I notice that people stop. Stop is the word for it. It is that whole point at the moon, then admire your finger not the moon. I never hear anyone say they will grow old - all humans die - so grow old and officially be THE old wise human. People lose concern about being human. People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love. The need for a name comes from seeking social position. Like philosophy: people know about the philosophers who fought long and hard for FAME and a stage. They never consider the ones who don't want to talk to them. Always the conflict, the 'team sport', everyone is on a team. The internet atheist team, the whatever team. Just asking about God is a sign something is wrong. To me it sounds like someone saying, they have doubt in their team, in their religion, that told them to love their children. If you needed a reason to love your children, you are in a state of failure. If you need a reason to love your world, your dog, your fellow man, you are diseased. If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life. The worst thing that happened to so many promising people was their idea that everyone was like them, so they had to make a team sport out of it. If only more people could lead and not follow. I struggle to understand why I would care if God was real. It would not change a single thing in my life. I don't ACT human. It is who I am. I will be that. While everyone else wants to have their team win, I just want to get away from everyone trapped in that mistake. I'd rather people were evil than acted good. At least their evil wouldn't be a lie.

[Darcy88]

Isn't indentation a beautiful thing?

[usman.khawar]

Yes this is proof to a person inclined to believe in God in the first place, but hardly an argument that a staunch atheist or agnostic would accept.


God bless

can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

besides that it seems u r intended to end our conversation. coz besides argument i asked some question from you like in which u said " i am informed that its hard to prove God etc ...


can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

God bless u

[Pendragon]

can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

besides that it seems u r intended to end our conversation. coz besides argument i asked some question from you like in which u said " i am informed that its hard to prove God etc ...


can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

God bless u

The argument is, as I understand it, that there is a very obvious DESIGN to the way the universe is ordered, and that the concept of a design requires a designer, therefore God must exist.

An Atheist would argue that what seems to be intelligent design is merely evolution at work, so why would it be necessary for God to exist.
That is what a believer in God would call proof.

As to my statement, you misquote me. I said: "I am reliably informed that it is pretty much impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there are problems there as well." This has nothing to do with proving God exists, I state that it is hard to prove that ANYTHING does not or cannot exist. You can call something unlikely, but proving it to not exist is problematical.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot for further details.

God bless

Pen

[Paulclem]

I see the same issue across such a wide range of topics. Someone asked if they could be Christian and Buddhist, Hebrew Torah Creationism vs assorted evolution where no human groups currently evolve; that only happens to animals. I notice that people stop. Stop is the word for it. It is that whole point at the moon, then admire your finger not the moon. I never hear anyone say they will grow old - all humans die - so grow old and officially be THE old wise human. People lose concern about being human. People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love. The need for a name comes from seeking social position. Like philosophy: people know about the philosophers who fought long and hard for FAME and a stage. They never consider the ones who don't want to talk to them. Always the conflict, the 'team sport', everyone is on a team. The internet atheist team, the whatever team. Just asking about God is a sign something is wrong. To me it sounds like someone saying, they have doubt in their team, in their religion, that told them to love their children. If you needed a reason to love your children, you are in a state of failure. If you need a reason to love your world, your dog, your fellow man, you are diseased. If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life. The worst thing that happened to so many promising people was their idea that everyone was like them, so they had to make a team sport out of it. If only more people could lead and not follow. I struggle to understand why I would care if God was real. It would not change a single thing in my life. I don't ACT human. It is who I am. I will be that. While everyone else wants to have their team win, I just want to get away from everyone trapped in that mistake. I'd rather people were evil than acted good. At least their evil wouldn't be a lie.

no human groups currently evolve; that only happens to animals.

I'm no scientist, but I don't think this is correct. Evolution takes millions of years, not the amount of time modern humans have been around.

Change is taking place as well. We are bigger, faster and stronger these days, though this is no doubt due to environmental adaptation. As I said, I'm no scientist, and so I 'm not sure about the relationship of the two - but stop humans have not.

[Paulclem]

People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love.

Love and godness are unfortunately not things that arise in completion in humans. It takes development.

I can't really speak for Christians, but a Buddhist needs to progress along the path to become a better person embodying love and compassion. The teachings form part of this. If such positive traits were a naturally occurring phenomena, then there would be no need for the teachings, but clearly, like every phase of history, love and compassion are all too often lacking in societies.

[Paulclem]

If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life.

This sounds very idealistic and unattainable. To be human is to socialise and engage with others. It is said that we can't survive without others, and from a merely practial/ medical sense it is very easy to see why, let alone the fulfillment of social and emotional needs.

[FranzS]

JamCrackers: are you a Satanist by any chance?

[usman.khawar]

The argument is, as I understand it, that there is a very obvious DESIGN to the way the universe is ordered, and that the concept of a design requires a designer, therefore God must exist.

An Atheist would argue that what seems to be intelligent design is merely evolution at work, so why would it be necessary for God to exist.
That is what a believer in God would call proof.

As to my statement, you misquote me. I said: "I am reliably informed that it is pretty much impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there are problems there as well." This has nothing to do with proving God exists, I state that it is hard to prove that ANYTHING does not or cannot exist. You can call something unlikely, but proving it to not exist is problematical.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot for further details.

God bless

Pen

the arguement i posted , and the book explained, it, is not the same which u told me . simply u didnt read that or miss to read.

further, if i talk about the argument which u mentioned.. is good, for athiest, what a beautiful evolution, billions of lives, so balanced so perfect system of earth and cosmos. whats a beautiful acciedent

[Pendragon]

I do not know why I get into these things, it so seldom ends well. Sorry if I offended you. I get one thing out of something and others get something else, which has equal ability to be right or wrong. I bow out now, God bless you.

sunt viae, et stulti non errent per eam.

[JamCrackers]

There is this ball of dirt that goes around a star. These apes are born on this ball of dirt. I am one of those apes. It is this day of this year in the internet age. My DNA has battled for countless generations to give rise to me. No other ape was born here that is more human than me. I am self aware. I see the world for what it is. Example: let's say you had the psychic power to influence gambling dice by 1%. The issue is that your effect is so small, that no one really cares. There is a chance an escaped zoo elephant will trample me or an airplane will fall out of the sky on me. It is unlikely, so I run the little nothing risks of life. If you were to cast a voodoo spell, a Jesus chant, beat a drum, point an evil finger, those all go in the trashcan of risks too small to care about. I don't care if spiritualism is real; it is too impotent to effect any real chance I need concern myself about. I don't believe the human apes change. Once the biology of puberty has set in, a human ape stays fixed in their general behavior. I could no more talk you into admitting you were wrong than I could talk you into shooting lasers from your eyes. It will never happen. Everything is because it must be. Cause and effect is not everything. It is about 90%+ though, so cause and effect makes the world go round. We were born, we will live, we will die. Some will be remembered and some forgotten. You had a life to live in this world. If you neglected real life for your religion or spiritualism, I find that morally identical to you saying you spend your life on World of Warcraft or Online Blackjack. Don't get so wrapped up in the social conformity of others apes on this ball of dirt. I am the one self aware. No such ape in a costume exists to answer my questions. I grew up.