what is the point of religion?

[ralfyman]

It is part of the human condition.

[Paulclem]

It is not about mind at all! In my post there was nothing that indicted that people I mentioned talked about mind. You have made assumptions and you are wrong. It is much deeper than that. I guess, we are attracted to the different writings and no wonder we can’t understand each other.

I'd like to go back to this point about the mind.

When you're talking about Buddhism, it's about practices which are designed to positively help the practitioner; to demonstrate why some actions are negative and have a negative effect, why some actions are positive and have a positive effect, and how to assist this change through purification. As all actions come from the mind, then it is the mind that has to be positively changed by the practitioner themselves.

They may very well then begin a practice to develop single pointed concentration. This is a mind which is trained to focus very powerfully upon an object of meditation. It is useful in that it is used with meditations on reality.

Once the practitioner has become better at controlling their own mind's negative impulses, and developing positive ones, then they might begin to develop compassion, or Bodhicitta - literally called the mind of Enlightenment. This mind develops the spontaneous and boundless wish to help all sentient beings to liberation from suffering.

In addition to this the practitioner will develop the wisdom realising Emptiness. Emptiness can be developed alone, but Bodhicitta is developed alongside it, as without that, full Enlightenment will not be attained.

The Tantra practitioner, at some point will identify a teacher, and become their student. Tantra is also called the short path, and is very powerful, as it is supposed to provide a method for achieving Enlightenment in one life.

Tantra involves complex visualisations - which also train the mind, and the use of inner energies or winds in order to visualise becoming whatever Buddha their practice involves. The practice is maintained in and out of meditation - as any level should be through application of the practice.

These practices may involve images and ritual instruments, but none of those worldly things embody the practice. hat lies within the Teacher and Student. As such, you don't need any objects at all.

Can you then tell me what is deeper than these aspects of the mind?

[ftil]

Originally posted by Paulclem
Can you then tell me what is deeper than these aspects of the mind?

I have told you a few times that it was not about mind……..and you are doing the same. One of the person I have mentioned was a member of an ancient Tibetan religious order, The Gelugpa (“The Virtuous”), and that he himself, as his father before him, was one of the sprulsku or reincarnating lamas. He didn’t talk about mind. Zen master didn’t talk about mind either. I told you that maybe I will write about it on my tread in the future. I have wasted my time to explain why I don’t like to talk about Buddhism but esoteric knowledge. You have to respect that.

[krymsonkyng]

A celestial security blanket in the form of subset-communities.

[cacian]

It is part of the human condition.

what does the human conditions entails?
Doesn't condition means that humans rely on religion to exist?

[cacian]

^Has anyone else noticed that the more cornered ftil feels, the more emoticons he uses?

Haha..emoticons are the beesknees

[cacian]

The question I have here is

what is the difference between someone who is a christian and someone who believes in God?

[ftil]

The question I have here is

what is the difference between someone who is a christian and someone who believes in God?

A strange question. Every religion has own gods and demons. I don’t have any clue where are you going.

[Paulclem]

I have told you a few times that it was not about mind……..and you are doing the same. One of the person I have mentioned was a member of an ancient Tibetan religious order, The Gelugpa (“The Virtuous”), and that he himself, as his father before him, was one of the sprulsku or reincarnating lamas. He didn’t talk about mind. Zen master didn’t talk about mind either. I told you that maybe I will write about it on my tread in the future. I have wasted my time to explain why I don’t like to talk about Buddhism but esoteric knowledge. You have to respect that.

Funnily enough, the tradition I am associated with is Gelugpa - The Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition, established in the US and UK by Lama Yeshe and his Heart Disciple Lama Zopa - who is the current head below HH The Dalai Lama.

I am familiar with the teachings as presented in the Gelug tradition, and the above very brief description of the practices is based on Gelug/ Mahayana practice. (I was going to add that different Buddhist traditions have different emphases, and that it isn't extensive.)

I have wasted my time to explain why I don’t like to talk about Buddhism but esoteric knowledge.

If you are talking about reincarnated Lamas and Zen masters, you are talking about Buddhism - esoteric or not. I think you are under a misapprehension about what that esoteric knowledge is, and how it is embodied. As I've said before, the Buddhist path is an integral part of Tantra. It is a prerquisite. You don't get practitioners ignoring the Buddha's teachings or leapfrogging them. They are bound up, Mahayana and Tantra being an extension to, not different from the Buddha's path.

I respect you or I wouldn't waste my time talking to you.

So what was the name of the Lama?

[cacian]

A strange question. Every religion has own gods and demons. I don’t have any clue where are you going.

Here is where I am going.
How many Gods are there?
If there are many gods then which one is legitimate?
and if there is only one then what it the point of so many different religion?
In other words
what is the difference between a christian and someone who believes in God?

[ftil]

Funnily enough, the tradition I am associated with is Gelugpa - The Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition, established in the US and UK by Lama Yeshe and his Heart Disciple Lama Zopa - who is the current head below HH The Dalai Lama.

I am familiar with the teachings as presented in the Gelug tradition, and the above very brief description of the practices is based on Gelug/ Mahayana practice. (I was going to add that different Buddhist traditions have different emphases, and that it isn't extensive.)

I have wasted my time to explain why I don’t like to talk about Buddhism but esoteric knowledge.

If you are talking about reincarnated Lamas and Zen masters, you are talking about Buddhism - esoteric or not. I think you are under a misapprehension about what that esoteric knowledge is, and how it is embodied. As I've said before, the Buddhist path is an integral part of Tantra. It is a prerquisite. You don't get practitioners ignoring the Buddha's teachings or leapfrogging them. They are bound up, Mahayana and Tantra being an extension to, not different from the Buddha's path.

I respect you or I wouldn't waste my time talking to you.

So what was the name of the Lama?

It is nice that you are associated with is Gelugpa. He revealed the Vajnayana, “the thunderbolt,” and “higher prayer” but he didn’t want to reveal Mantrayana, the vehicle of mystic spells. He said to a person whom he taught that “What I have done is dangerous enough.” ???? I wish I could talk to him as I have many questions but I don’t expect that he would answer it as he didn’t answer to his student. Zen Master talked about psychic abilities and a spirit world. I have also have many question about it. But the truth is that as Tao Te Ching said, “Those who know are still”

I have a different understanding of esoteric knowledge as you do. If you look at many religions for example Mystery of Mithra, Dionysus Mysteries, Orphic Mysteries to name a few, you see that only a few had the access to secret knowledge. Masses got religions as a means of controlling and manipulating them.

I hope that you understand why I don’t want to discuss it but I may post excerpt on my tread in the future. Those I would love to talk are still.

[ftil]

Here is where I am going.
How many Gods are there?
If there are many gods then which one is legitimate?
and if there is only one then what it the point of so many different religion?
In other words
what is the difference between a christian and someone who believes in God?

I wouldn’t even try to count gods as there are so many. Of course, I take into consideration all religions, ancient and present. I ask different questions. Who wrote those religions? I am more interested in finding similarities than differences which brings more questions.....

[KCurtis]

Greed is generated from selfishness. If you want to look at the origin of most religions, there is a morality usually taught. I can speak for the Christian religion, that its followers are taught NOT to be greedy.

This is true also of the other two monotheistic religions.

[Paulclem]

It is nice that you are associated with is Gelugpa. He revealed the Vajnayana, “the thunderbolt,” and “higher prayer” but he didn’t want to reveal Mantrayana, the vehicle of mystic spells. He said to a person whom he taught that “What I have done is dangerous enough.” ???? I wish I could talk to him as I have many questions but I don’t expect that he would answer it as he didn’t answer to his student. Zen Master talked about psychic abilities and a spirit world. I have also have many question about it. But the truth is that as Tao Te Ching said, “Those who know are still”

I have a different understanding of esoteric knowledge as you do. If you look at many religions for example Mystery of Mithra, Dionysus Mysteries, Orphic Mysteries to name a few, you see that only a few had the access to secret knowledge. Masses got religions as a means of controlling and manipulating them.

I hope that you understand why I don’t want to discuss it but I may post excerpt on my tread in the future. Those I would love to talk are still.

He said to a person whom he taught that “What I have done is dangerous enough.”

This could have a couple of meanings. Teaching Tantra has Karmic repercussion and involves vows. If a vow is broken, then there is a karmic repercussion for the student and the Teacher.

The student Teacher relationship is very important, and involves a lot of training. Teachers - it says in the texts, should be very very carefully chosen. The same goes for the student. It's not really about control of individuals as such, for few people will reach this level of meditation. The hold on teachings is because they are potent. Without higher training a person can damage themselves.

Remember these are practices for monastics rather than lay people. It is a full time practice. There's no room for anything else. You're right as well. He won't - can't - tell you about the practices. You'd have to be his student.

Psychic abilities are - it is said - a by product of practice. Things like knowing others' minds etc. They are not the point of the practice. If it becomes the motivation for meditation, then the practice ceases to be Buddhist.

The spirit world is one of the realms in the Wheel of Life. This is the realm of the Hungry Ghosts - a very unfortunate realm where the beings are forever in need and full of unfullfillable desire. Through meditation, it is said these realms can be perceived.

Control comes with institutions and Governements. I can only speak of Buddhism, but I don't think the practice has that element of control in it. Some of the institutions yes - but I think that's politics. Buddhism began as a - not revolutionary but perhaps subversive religion in that it was not the Hindu norm of the time. It can be and is practiced by individuals anywhere. No temples are needed really. It can be a purely solitary practice, or one that involves a community.

[ftil]

He said to a person whom he taught that “What I have done is dangerous enough.”

This could have a couple of meanings. Teaching Tantra has Karmic repercussion and involves vows. If a vow is broken, then there is a karmic repercussion for the student and the Teacher.

The student Teacher relationship is very important, and involves a lot of training. Teachers - it says in the texts, should be very very carefully chosen. The same goes for the student. It's not really about control of individuals as such, for few people will reach this level of meditation. The hold on teachings is because they are potent. Without higher training a person can damage themselves.

Remember these are practices for monastics rather than lay people. It is a full time practice. There's no room for anything else. You're right as well. He won't - can't - tell you about the practices. You'd have to be his student.

Psychic abilities are - it is said - a by product of practice. Things like knowing others' minds etc. They are not the point of the practice. If it becomes the motivation for meditation, then the practice ceases to be Buddhist.

The spirit world is one of the realms in the Wheel of Life. This is the realm of the Hungry Ghosts - a very unfortunate realm where the beings are forever in need and full of unfullfillable desire. Through meditation, it is said these realms can be perceived.

Control comes with institutions and Governements. I can only speak of Buddhism, but I don't think the practice has that element of control in it. Some of the institutions yes - but I think that's politics. Buddhism began as a - not revolutionary but perhaps subversive religion in that it was not the Hindu norm of the time. It can be and is practiced by individuals anywhere. No temples are needed really. It can be a purely solitary practice, or one that involves a community.

Hm…....I don’t want to sound sarcastic but don’t you think that it is funny that those who knew didn’t want to talk……. but you are so eager to explain everything. You have tried to simplify it without knowing a whole story and you are still making assumptions rather than asking questions. Sorry, but I don’t have time for that kind of discussion any more. I have been studied for years and I have more questions than answers. In fact, I don’t look for the answers but ask questions since if we accept a belief we close our minds for alternative explanations.

I have a list of books to read from Kalachakra Tantra: A shadow of Dalai Lama. But I don’t think so that I would ever want to discuss it. I know that many questions I have will never be answered.

I better make a good use of my time and go back to reading. You will find people who are interested in Buddhism ….