A discourse on Atheism (not a religious debate)

[mal4mac]

I'm reading the excellent "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris at the moment and he suggests that "atheist" should not exist as a word - it's as useful as "anti-alchemist". With something ridiculous you don't need a word to denote a person who is anti-"ridiculous". That would just be ridiculous Once we all accept how ridiculous the various religions are then the word will disappear. In fact it would be a good idea to stop using it, because it suggests that sensible people take "the religious" seriously. If my eccentric uncle came to me and said he was an alchemist I'd treat him as kindly as ever, but I wouldn't vote him into a position of responsibility... So if you are a Christian and your nice friends are atheists, note that they think of you in this way... Read Sam Harris and get rational...

[cafolini]

Also, being an atheist doesn't mean that one is necessarily against the idea of God. I wish there was a God. Like Sarte I feel in my heart a void where God ought to be. I've tried to believe. Just can't do it. I've read too much Nietzsche and have always been a skeptic to the core. If there's a God I fail to see his reasoning in making faith so insurmountable a challenge, in situating himself beyond this unbridgable gulf. It smacks of indifference.

"Who would think of a God when things go well. But in misery it is an imperative." ~ F. Nietzsche.

[Ragnar Freund]

gone.

[BienvenuJDC]

I was about to write a comment when I saw this one, which echoes my sentiments accurately and succinctly. I never refer to myself as an atheist because I refuse to define myself by a negative, especially when the positive is something as foolish as religion. The problem is, what do you use instead? Richard Dawkins suggests Bright, but really, come on!

Consider the hospitals and schools that have been established in the name of religion. Yes, there are negative aspects of organized religion, but to consider the idea of a God is no more ridiculous than the idea of there not being a God. It is a biased consideration that is made in that respect. I guess that notion defines you.

[JuniperWoolf]

The negatives FAR outweigh the positives, and those positives (hospitals for example) have been provided via secular methods such as government or charity far more often than religion.

Regarding "new atheists," here's the thing: most "new atheists" (which I think could be more accurately described as the new "anti-organized religious," since they're not even all atheists) were born in the 80's which means: when they were children, they watched Muslims fly airplanes into New York City; when AIDS developed, they were babies and grew up watching people die by the millions in Africa because the Catholic Church refused to allow people to use condoms; when they were growing up, the Catholic Church's histoy of institutionalized coverups of priests molesting children was exposed; they were also kids during the most active phase of the Gay Rights Movement. Of course, why deny the same legal rights to people just because of what they choose to do in the privacy of their own homes, the resolution sounds obvious. The only opposition? Religious people, who say disturbing things about homosexuality being "wrong" and send kids to unbelievably ****ed up "learn how to be straight" seminar retreats. Their behaviour caused many gay people to commit suicide. On top of that, many people see the Iraq war as a holy war.

So in summation, BY FAR the biggest topics on the news throughout their entire lives were: thousands of people being crushed and burned to death, millions of people dying slowly of aids, children being molested and the supposed "good guys" lying about it to protect themselves, gay suicide and denial of human rights, and for what? From the "new anti-organized religion," vantage point, each religious belief seems equally (in)valid, so to them it looks like people are fighting about which has the toughest invisible friend, and they're making people suffer because it's what that invisible friend wants. Insane.

So, taking these things into consideration, is it really any wonder that "new atheists" feel so much disgust and anger towards organized religion (and specifically, the Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions)? Profound disgust towards organized religion seems to be one of the main features of my generation, one only needs to mention Christianity in a classroom for this to become apparent, and it's not the "liberal professors" who are putting these ideas into our heads like many people claim, kids aren't stupid sheep: our opinions arise from our own observation of the screwed up world in which we were raised.

[Drkshadow03]

The problem with these conversations is usually they present the extremely religious as representative of the religious and the extreme anti-theists as the atheists, without acknowledging the very wide middle ground between those positions.

[BienvenuJDC]

So, taking these things into consideration, is it really any wonder that "new atheists" feel so much disgust and anger towards organized religion (and specifically, the Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions)? Hating religion seems to be one of the main features of my generation, one only needs to mention Christianity in a classroom for this to become apparent, and it's not the "liberal professors" who are putting these ideas into our heads like many people claim, kids aren't stupid sheep: our opinions arise from our own observation of the evils in the world around us.

You are able to see the bad in religious people, but you are blind to the good. You are judgmental and intolerant. Your words here show a tremendous prejudice. I'm hoping that your ideology will die out soon. It is one thing to not believe in God, but to have a hatred toward sincere religious people is evil. If this is how you define "new atheist", it is apparent that a bigger enemy arises against culture than that of the organized religions. How many of the atheists have collectively done good for their community? How many hospitals or schools have they started? What atheist groups or movements at feeding the poor in soup kitchens? There is much good in religion, evil is found in all mankind.

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm hoping that your ideology will die out soon.

It won't. Not as long as people are still killing and denying human rights in the name of religion.

[BienvenuJDC]

It won't. Not as long as people are still killing and denying people human rights in the name of religion.

Then God help us all.
Do you think that your attitude is a positive response to the atrocities done by religion? You repay evil with evil. Is that what we should expect from atheists?

[Darcy88]

"Religion makes good people better and bad people worse."

-Reinhold Niebuhr

I think part of it is that its the crazy rabid hate-mongering Christians and Muslims who shout loudest and attract the most attention. The humble and devout individual motivated by his or her faith to become a better person doesn't get the same amount of publicity as the Pat Robertsons and Anwar al-Awlakis of the world. Such dimwitted buffoons should not be taken as representative of the faithful as a whole. There are good and bad Christians just as there are good and bad liberals, police men, marathon runners, and fans of chocolate cake.

[JuniperWoolf]

You repay evil with evil.

What evil? Evil = killing and denying human rights. I would rather die than kill a Christian, or strip him of his basic human rights. Where's the evil in being disgusted by disgusting events such as mass murder (and I include the Catholic's refusal to allow AIDS riddled Africa to use condoms as mass murder by the way, I'm not just talking about the WTCs)?

[BienvenuJDC]

What evil? Evil = killing and denying human rights. I would rather die than kill a Christian, or strip him of his basic human rights. Where's the evil in being disgusted by disgusting events such as mass murder?

Because you hate.

I'm done with anymore discussion about this on this thread.

[JuniperWoolf]

Because you hate.

Yes, I hate a behaviour, not a person. Show me the sane human who doesn't hate child rape. When that rape is tolerated because of a religious institution, I feel complete disgust towards the upper echelon of that institution and I think that people should turn away from it because it isn't trustworty and is commiting gross acts of betrayal and outright criminal negligence.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The problem with these conversations is usually they present the extremely religious as representative of the religious and the extreme anti-theists as the atheists, without acknowledging the very wide middle ground between those positions.

Bingo. Plus, when someone who is in the middle ground, they are accused and demeaned by one, if not both sides.

I'm hoping that your ideology will die out soon.

It won't. Not as long as people are still killing and denying human rights in the name of religion.

Then God help us all.

This is an odd exchange. Bien, are you conceding that killing and denying human rights are an unavoidable biproduct of religion? You hope her ideology dies out, she says it won't as long as this occurs, and then you invoke God's help. Like I said, it seemed odd.

Also, does hate equal evil?

[JuniperWoolf]

Such dimwitted buffoons should not be taken as representative of the faithful as a whole.

Yeah, but it's not just that the "buffoons" are being loud and mean, they're causeing millions of people to suffer, become diseased and die. They should be taken seriously.