It's Your Time You're Wasting by Frank Chalk

[Mr.lucifer]

When you guys talk about discipline, you mean the authoritative style, not the authoritarian style, right?

[stlukesguild]

Can someone please define liberal education policies versus conservative education policies with concrete examples, particularly a handful of them?

OK... some Liberal/Progressive policies would include pressuring teachers not to mark student's papers with red ink as it might damage their precious egos. Emphasizing the achievements of minorities at the expense of learning about the major historical/cultural figures necessary for a child to succeed in today's society (And no, this is not an anti-multiculturalism diatribe. I am fully for exploring the achievements of all cultures, races, genders... but we shouldn't be spending more time [in the US] studying about Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks than Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.) Elimination of phonic for whole language immersion. Eliminating ability tracking. Attempting to enforce an illusion of egalitarianism by taking inclusion to the extreme. Social promotion championed again as a means of avoiding damage to the student's fragile ego. Refusal to enforce expectation for student behavior or hold students accountable.

On the Conservative side we have the push for the inclusion of prayer and religion in the classroom. We have the attempt to eliminate ESL is the belief that all children should learn English of go home. We have the push to eliminate nearly all reference to the achievements of cultures beyond European/Americans. We have the push to eliminate thinking that challenges conservative ideas regarding sex, birth control, evolution, history, etc... We have the push to enforce positive views of Capitalism, American military intervention, etc... as opposed to encouraging students to explore all sides of a given debate and come to their own conclusion.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Can someone please define liberal education policies versus conservative education policies with concrete examples, particularly a handful of them?

OK... some Liberal/Progressive policies would include pressuring teachers not to mark student's papers with red ink as it might damage their precious egos. Emphasizing the achievements of minorities at the expense of learning about the major historical/cultural figures necessary for a child to succeed in today's society (And no, this is not an anti-multiculturalism diatribe. I am fully for exploring the achievements of all cultures, races, genders... but we shouldn't be spending more time [in the US] studying about Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks than Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.) Elimination of phonic for whole language immersion. Eliminating ability tracking. Attempting to enforce an illusion of egalitarianism by taking inclusion to the extreme. Social promotion championed again as a means of avoiding damage to the student's fragile ego. Refusal to enforce expectation for student behavior or hold students accountable.

On the Conservative side we have the push for the inclusion of prayer and religion in the classroom. We have the attempt to eliminate ESL is the belief that all children should learn English of go home. We have the push to eliminate nearly all reference to the achievements of cultures beyond European/Americans. We have the push to eliminate thinking that challenges conservative ideas regarding sex, birth control, evolution, history, etc... We have the push to enforce positive views of Capitalism, American military intervention, etc... as opposed to encouraging students to explore all sides of a given debate and come to their own conclusion.

That’s a fair summing up of both sides of the political extreme (substitute British equivalents and it approaches the same thing). I do wonder though, if by liberalism here we could also take it to mean the general movement towards liberal social attitudes regardless of which party is actually in power. I’m talking about the general cultural underpinning of liberal ideas resulting in such things as the focus on rights over responsibility, the suing culture and the politically correct mind-set. Regardless of which party is actually in power it seems as though this mentality has permeated its way into society at large and therefore of course the schools and other education establishments.

Each political party might try to steer its own way towards its own ideology, but the reality is that it’s a slow moving process with only minor alterations in policy from one side to the next with each successive change in government. For example you might hear Conservative rhetoric of “rote learning of the Kings and Queens” or “more power for teachers to discipline misbehaving students”, but the reality is only minor slow changes to policy (which will be changed back again next government) if that, if it’s not just empty rhetoric to win votes.

Personally, as I’ve said, easily the most obvious sore thumb of a problem in schools is poor behaviour. There are other problems, as I have commented upon, but this is right at the top of the list. Again, I’m talking about the schools that Frank talks about, the sort of school that I work in and similar schools around it, not those high middle/top of the state school league tables which are excelling all the time. I suspect that there are many reasons for poor behaviour, but certainly the cultural liberalist attitudes, if you can call it that, are evident.

For example, last week one lad ran out of class and down the corridor. I called out to him and he ignored me. He continued to run down the corridor eventually stopping at the door to another class and began to shout at someone inside, a friend I expect. I walked over to him and tried to get him to come away from the door and back where he is supposed to be as he was disrupting the class. He ignored me. I told him repeatedly to come away from the door, getting progressively louder and he continued to completely ignore me. It an attempt to get his attention, and an error on my part, nudged his bag with my finger and thumb. He immediately turned around and said “Oi, that’s assault. Do that again and I’ll sue you”. He then turned his back on me and continued to shout into the door. He eventually came away in his own time, but refused to come back to class and instead ran off in the opposite direction for an early dinner. I didn’t bother to report the incident because it is so minor that I wouldn’t have any backing to keep him inside for 5 minutes or similar punishment (not lines because that is now illegal as it is deemed to be against human rights - seriously). I only mention it to highlight his first reaction upon my nudging his bag which was one of his rights and the ingrained suing mind-set at the complete disregard to his own responsibilities in following simple instructions from a member of staff.

In the same week, a particular student (who has been on his “last chance” in the school for the last two years) had completely disrupted a lesson for the last 30 minutes by calling out and shouting at the teacher in such a rude and aggressive manner he was to be ejected from class. He refused to go. The general policy when this happens to send for on-call and hope they can move the student on and into another class (so that they can disrupt that one as well usually). This can take 10-15 minutes though as there is only one person on on-call and they are busy! So in an attempt not to have to waste another 10 minutes of everybody else’s time (especially the good kids who want to learn, the ones really being failed by the system as I said before) I mistakenly picked up his pen (probably borrowed from us) and his book and tried to move him. He shouted at me “Oi you, get your dirty hands of my property or I’ll sue you and this fu*king school”. I didn’t return his book but tried again to move him out, mildly remonstrating about his use of language. Fortunately, on-call was surprisingly quick and arrived after about 5 minutes and he eventually agreed to leave with him. If he hadn’t we would have had to move the entire class out and found a different room because that is the policy. Of course, most of the lesson was now ruined anyway, as usually happens because there are 5 or 6 of students of that nature in that class, but the point is he immediately leaped to the idea of suing, his rights, totally oblivious to anything he should be doing.

Replies like these are very common from students. It is an almost instantaneous reply from a lot of them and evident of the liberalist cultural attitudes found in schools and in society generally.

[Alexander III]

cafolini- It is not true that those schools fail the good students.

Neely- Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.

This article seems quite apropos:

http://thecollegevoice.org/2011/11/0...-biggest-flaw/

I must disagree with you one one count. I find it somewhat frustrating to hear all older men and women, in the world on the internet, looking at my generation and saying we are doomed and stuff in a similar vein.

I am sorry but I am extremley proud of my generation. And really my generation is still young. Sure we are not going off to war like our grandparents or are not reinventing an new prosperous system like our parents, but I am proud of us.

I talk to my people, and I see a passionate dessire for life, I see people who I am proud of.

How on earth could I not love my generation when a few guys a 4ish years older than me produce this song and my generation responds to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNy8llTLvuA&ob=av2n

[Vonny]

That’s a fair summing up of both sides of the political extreme (substitute British equivalents and it is approaches the same thing). I do wonder though, if by liberalism here we could also take it to mean the general movement towards liberal social attitudes regardless of which party is actually in power. I’m talking about the general cultural underpinning of liberal ideas resulting in such things as the focus on rights over responsibility, the suing culture and the politically correct mind-set. Regardless of which party is actually in power it seems as though this mentality has permeated its way into society at large and therefore of course the schools and other education establishments.

Each political party might try to steer its own way towards its own ideology, but the reality is that it’s a slow moving process with only minor alterations in policy from one side to the next with each successive change in government. For example you might hear Conservative rhetoric of “rote learning of the Kings and Queens” or “more power for teachers to discipline misbehaving students”, but the reality is only minor slow changes to policy (which will be changed back again next government) if that, if it’s not just empty rhetoric to win votes.

Personally, as I’ve said, easily the most obvious sore thumb of a problem in schools is poor behaviour. There are other problems, as I have commented upon, but this is right at the top of the list. Again, I’m talking about the schools that Frank talks about, the sort of school that I work in and similar schools around it, not those high middle/top of the state school league tables which are excelling all the time. I suspect that there are many reasons for poor behaviour, but certainly the cultural liberalist attitudes, if you can call it that, are evident.

For example, last week one lad ran out of class and down the corridor. I called out to him and he ignored me. He continued to run down the corridor eventually stopping at the door to another class and began to shout at someone inside, a friend I expect. I walked over to him and tried to get him to come away from the door and back where he is supposed to be as he was disrupting the class. He ignored me. I told him repeatedly to come away from the door, getting progressively louder and he continued to completely ignore me. It an attempt to get his attention, and an error on my part, nudged his bag with my finger and thumb. He immediately turned around and said “Oi, that’s assault. Do that again and I’ll sue you”. He then turned his back on me and continued to shout into the door. He eventually came away in his own time, but refused to come back to class and instead ran off in the opposite direction for an early dinner. I didn’t bother to report the incident because it is so minor that I wouldn’t have any backing to keep him inside for 5 minutes or similar punishment (not lines because that is now illegal as it is deemed to be against human rights - seriously). I only mention it to highlight his first reaction upon my nudging his bag which was one of his rights and the ingrained suing mind-set at the complete disregard to his own responsibilities in following simple instructions from a member of staff.

In the same week, a particular student (who has been on his “last chance” in the school for the last two years) had completely disrupted a lesson for the last 30 minutes by calling out and shouting at the teacher in such a rude and aggressive manner he was to be ejected from class. He refused to go. The general policy when this happens to send for on-call and hope they can move the student on and into another class (so that they can disrupt that one as well usually). This can take 10-15 minutes though as there is only one person on on-call and they are busy! So in an attempt not to have to waste another 10 minutes of everybody else’s time (especially the good kids who want to learn, the ones really being failed by the system as I said before) I mistakenly picked up his pen (probably borrowed from us) and his book and tried to move him. He shouted at me “Oi you, get your dirty hands of my property or I’ll sue you and this fu*king school”. I didn’t return his book but tried again to move him out, mildly remonstrating about his use of language. Fortunately, on-call was surprisingly quick and arrived after about 5 minutes and he eventually agreed to leave with him. If he hadn’t we would have had to move the entire class out and found a different room because that is the policy. Of course, most of the lesson was now ruined anyway, as usually happens because there are 5 or 6 of students of that nature in that class, but the point is he immediately leaped to the idea of suing, his rights, totally oblivious to anything he should be doing.

Replies like these are very common from students. It is an almost instantaneous reply from a lot of them and evident of the liberalist cultural attitudes found in schools and in society generally.

It's a disgrace. I have a lot of trouble being around most people of my generation, and the younger ones are even more difficult.

[cafolini]

I must disagree with you one one count. I find it somewhat frustrating to hear all older men and women, in the world on the internet, looking at my generation and saying we are doomed and stuff in a similar vein.

I am sorry but I am extremley proud of my generation. And really my generation is still young. Sure we are not going off to war like our grandparents or are not reinventing an new prosperous system like our parents, but I am proud of us.

I talk to my people, and I see a passionate dessire for life, I see people who I am proud of.

How on earth could I not love my generation when a few guys a 4ish years older than me produce this song and my generation responds to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNy8llTLvuA&ob=av2n

Well, that's precisely what The Cave lyrics are saying. Good points. This generation is the sharpest in summary. Of course, the freedom necessary for progress causes petty issues greatly exaggerated by mongers.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Of course we must not fall into the mistake of judging an entire generation with the same green pen (the older or the younger generation!) and recognise that the generation Vs generation debate is a recurring theme as old as time. The 60s generation had their own obvious song too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI

Rather, my thoughts are drawn from my own experiences about teaching after years in education and with listening and learning from a variety of people within all walks of life. I can understand that this is not good enough for some people though, and that vacant notions of “freedoms” or other buzz words are much more definitive.

[B. Laumness]

I am sorry but I am extremley proud of my generation.

Why?

Although I can understand that everybody believes their generation is the brightest, the sharpest, in one word the best, it’s worrying to see such a lack of critical thinking towards today’s world. There are those who are capable of critical thinking, who developed a historical sense, and who know that our time is far from being the best; and there are people who never imagined that today’s world is a world where they are alienated by different powers, where their life has lost meaning, where they are less and less human. There are those who despise today’s world, and there are the fools who enjoy their time. I’m not old, I’m thirty, but already when I was in high school, I could see that most of the teenagers were dumb, ugly, boring, and that very few were worthy of friendship. As a teacher, I could see that the young people were dumber than ever, imprisoned in values they think liberating. I don’t lose hope in the youth, though: they are our only chance.

[cafolini]

Why?

Although I can understand that everybody believes their generation is the brightest, the sharpest, in one word the best, it’s worrying to see such a lack of critical thinking towards today’s world. There are those who are capable of critical thinking, who developed a historical sense, and who know that our time is far from being the best; and there are people who never imagined that today’s world is a world where they are alienated by different powers, where their life has lost meaning, where they are less and less human. There are those who despise today’s world, and there are the fools who enjoy their time. I’m not old, I’m thirty, but already when I was in high school, I could see that most of the teenagers were dumb, ugly, boring, and that very few were worthy of friendship. As a teacher, I could see that the young people were dumber than ever, imprisoned in values they think liberating. I don’t lose hope in the youth, though: they are our only chance.

Ha! Ridiculous. If you were to put into practice what you are saying in the classroom, you could never be a teacher, which I suspect you are not.
Now, tell me, how could you have so much hope for the dumb, ugly, boring, unworthy of friendship. You seem bitterer than raw cocoa and arsenic.

[B. Laumness]

I was a teacher during five years. I changed job, luckily.

[Emil Miller]

Why?

Although I can understand that everybody believes their generation is the brightest, the sharpest, in one word the best, it’s worrying to see such a lack of critical thinking towards today’s world. There are those who are capable of critical thinking, who developed a historical sense, and who know that our time is far from being the best; and there are people who never imagined that today’s world is a world where they are alienated by different powers, where their life has lost meaning, where they are less and less human. There are those who despise today’s world, and there are the fools who enjoy their time. I’m not old, I’m thirty, but already when I was in high school, I could see that most of the teenagers were dumb, ugly, boring, and that very few were worthy of friendship. As a teacher, I could see that the young people were dumber than ever, imprisoned in values they think liberating. I don’t lose hope in the youth, though: they are our only chance.

When teenagers say they are brighter than preceding generations, the only sensible thing to do is to smile indulgently and continue doing the cryptic crossword puzzle that you know they could never finish. As for critical thinking, there is in fact a superfluity of it in the form form of educational theories that are often simply hot air that have nothing to do with the real requirements of teaching: which is why the book under discussion makes a refreshing change by telling it as it is.
I would disagree that all teenagers are dumb, ugly and boring; after all, there are some very pretty girls out there, but the boys are, for the most part, beyond redemption. The values that they think liberating are those of the 'stupid' elder generation who are making a nice living by selling the younger generation all kinds of rubbish and telling them that it's different from what the older generation likes. There's nothing new in this of course, it's been going on since the 1950s, but it's amusing how they can be tricked into buying things that they 'must have' before the next 'must have' item rolls off the production line.

[B. Laumness]

Of course, there are still intelligent and pretty young people. Fortunately. (I wrote "most of the teenagers": "most of" means "la plupart", does it?)

I agree, Emil, the problem is not new, even though its consequences are more visible today.

[Emil Miller]

Of course, there are still intelligent and pretty young people. Fortunately. (I wrote "most of the teenagers": "most of" means "la plupart", does it?)

I agree, Emil, the problem is not new, even though its consequences are more visible today.

Sorry, I misread your post. Yes, "most of" does mean "la plupart".

[Vonny]

When teenagers say they are brighter than preceding generations, the only sensible thing to do is to smile indulgently and continue doing the cryptic crossword puzzle that you know they could never finish.

This is very funny. I don't know why other people get all I'm not a teen, but I'm one of the ones who can't do the crossword puzzle, and I don't have Emil's sharp wit, either. So what? It doesn't make me less of a person, but if I was voting in his country, I'd ask his advice and appreciate that he has some to give me.

[Emil Miller]

This is very funny. I don't know why other people get all I'm not a teen, but I'm one of the ones who can't do the crossword puzzle, and I don't have Emil's sharp wit, either. So what? It doesn't make me less of a person, but if I was voting in his country, I'd ask his advice and appreciate that he has some to give me.

The only advice I would give in such an instance would be to read my novel Pro Bono Publico, even though both of the parties that shared power during the period concerned are given very short shrift. That which is the rule today was caused by the misrule of yesterday.