It's Your Time You're Wasting by Frank Chalk

[Vonny]

Qimi, I think the confusion is that what you and I call Liberal and Conservative is different from what they call liberal and conservative. All the time I fall into this, where I am conservative, however I'm not Conservative. I'm also not Liberal.

In our country everything is so controlled by the C & L that many aren't able to think outside the box anymore.

Thanks, Vonny, to you and Stlukes for clearing up the conservative/liberal question. I think we do the whole question of how to deal with our schools and particularly our low-performing schools a disservice when we divide the issues and solutions into liberal or conservative camps. For one thing you've immediately decided that some things will work on not based solely on whoever thought them up, which is ridiculous in itself. Secondly, when we do that we demonize whole portions of humanity who have committed the sin of not thinking as we do, which is also ridiculous.

I'm afraid, Emil, much as we might want to bring back the good old days of caning recalcitrant students, that those days are gone for good. There are things that can be done that would be effective, if only....we'd be practical and ask questions:

Is it truly supportive?

Does it really help?

Is this really working?

The qualifiers are really necessary, I think.

I just started reading "Freakonomics" by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner (I realize I'm probably the last person in the Northern Hemisphere to do so, but there it is) and I skipped ahead to the chapter titled "What Makes a Perfect Parent" and found this:

"...school choice barely mattered at all.It is true that the Chicago students who entered the school choice lottery were more likely to graduate than the students who didn't-which seems to suggest that school choice does make a difference. But that's an illusion. The proof is in this comparison: the students who won the lottery and went to a "better" school did no better than equivalent students who lost the lottery and were left behind."

What did seem to help a significant portion of the students it goes on to say, was having a technical school or career academy, something I have long wished for at our school, which has systematically been doing away with these classes for the last ten years. I wondered if in wishing for this I was shortchanging our students, but I still feel that such programs would help, provided it is the students choice to go into them. In the United States they could still go on to get a higher education if they wanted too later.

Unfortunately, in Texas at any rate, we are striving to have one hundred per cent of our students go to college. Against their will, usually. Honoring what these young adults want is never encouraged. They are simply enrolled in classes and handed a schedule. If they passed the state-mandated test they may find themselves in AP classes from which they cannot withdraw unless they bring their parent or guardian to see the counselor.

In high schools, also, the principal is paid according to the number of students enrolled. For a long time that meant that we took any kid, even those not any longer welcome in other districts.

And as far as teachers mollycoddleing the students, it seemed to me that it was the administrators who did not back up the teachers that often caused the problems. The other day I had a student who wanted to leave the room. I told her no; she walked out anyway. I was furious and planning to write a referral. She came back and pretty much demanded re-entry. Finally the assitant principal came and explained the situation to me. All that trouble could have been saved if he'd only bothered to write me a note or her a pass.

Yesterday the same student told me again that her doctor told her she shouldn't carry a notebook for health reasons. I told her I would have to see a note from her doctor before I would accept that. Then she told me she had to leave early again. I told her that the asst. principal had told me that that was in effect only through last week. Guess what? She walked out again.

Of course I went back to the assistant principal. He told her what he told me and said he hoped I would write a referral. It was such a relief. The last principal we had took the students side over the teachers.

Qimissung, I have a few questions. For one thing, I've often thought that some type of on-the-job training should be a part of high school. And I think a tech school or vocational training or career academy would be a great thing. However, one problem with this is that if you train people to be electricians or plumbers, or to do manicures, there isn't enough demand for these service jobs to give everyone work.

The other thing is that all of these career colleges are a big scam right now. They charge horrendous fees and the education isn't quality. People graduate and can't find employment, and then the have a ton of school loan debt that they can't even get out from under through bankruptcy.

And then, on a separate issue, when you have an insolent and arrogant teenager, who will lie to a teacher, or defiantly walk out of the room - basically, all this is is a complete lack of respect - something has gone wrong in the development of that individual. Even if you can get the principle or authorities to force that child to do something at a certain time, there's something going on in that child's logic that is going to doom her/him to failure, don't you think?

One other question Qimissung, have you read the Little House books? I'd like to ask Stlukes this question, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he hasn't read them, which has left a large gap in his education. (I intend that comment with some humor, but not sarcasm.)

Going into my own personal experience again... own brain is formed differently. I would not consider being defiant to a teacher, or boss or doctor, or anyone like that -- unless I thought it through intellectually and there was some reason to do that -- it isn't a part of my nature. The reason for this is that after my father left, my brothers raised me. I was left at home with my brothers and we had no babysitter. And I knew that if I back-talked them or tried to throw my weight around, they would stomp me. They would absolutely stomp me into the ground.

[cafolini]

What was the effect of the stomping?

[LitNetIsGreat]

What was the effect of the stomping?

A child would learn to never do it again...though even correct behaviour management would do that, instead now we have no boundaries and seem puzzled when things get out of hand.

And apart from that a book about quiet, well behaved, hard working pupils and happy fulfilled teachers would never have achieved the sales of the two books he has written,which may have enabled him to leave the classroom behind.

Yes I know, I bet there are teachers/classroom assistants up and down the country kicking themselves, including me! Come to think of it, Frank McCourt wrote an interesting one based in his experiences in American schools in his book Teacher Man, which is also an interesting read and not too dissimilar to Frank Chalks own accounts. Someone has always got there before you.

[Vonny]

The effect of the stomping was that I learned to respect authority figures. As an adult I will question them, etc., but I'm not insolent and arrogant. My brothers were whipped with a belt, or garden hose. I once saw my dad hit my brother Mark in the nose and blood ran down his face. Mark works today and has never been in trouble with the law. My brothers had to obey and respect my dad, and today Mark has a very difficult boss that he gets along with fine.

I read all of Frank McCourt's books. He grew up in the worst possible conditions, something like Laura Ingalls Wilder, and both he and Laura had a great, insatiable thirst for learning and literature. Frank was very disappointed with trying to teach, and he finally worked into the job at Stuyvesant High School where he was able to do some good.

I don't want to diminish at all what Stlukes was saying about the conditions under which kids in big urban cities live. I honestly don't think I could live there at all. I would rather be dead. But there are people who live in very deprived and desperate circumstances who still want to study and learn.

[LitNetIsGreat]

But there are people who live in very deprived and desperate circumstances who still want to study and learn.

Absolutely, and therein lies the most frustrating aspect of all; watching these students fail, or be failed, constantly by the schools they are trapped in. A teacher who works in schools such as the one Frank describes will see thousands of these types ignored and forgotten in the desperate fight to control unruly behaviour. At least under the old grammar system these had a chance to escape into a decent school with decent future prospects, instead of being lumped into the nearest comprehensive madhouse.

[cafolini]

Absolutely, and therein lies the most frustrating aspect of all; watching these students fail, or be failed, constantly by the schools they are trapped in. A teacher who works in schools such as the one Frank describes will see thousands of these types ignored and forgotten in the desperate fight to control unruly behaviour. At least under the old grammar system these had a chance to escape into a decent school with decent future prospects, instead of being lumped into the nearest comprehensive madhouse.

It is not true that those schools fail the good students.

[LitNetIsGreat]

It is not true that those schools fail the good students.

Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.

[stlukesguild]

cafolini- It is not true that those schools fail the good students.

Neely- Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.

This article seems quite apropos:

http://thecollegevoice.org/2011/11/0...-biggest-flaw/

[cafolini]

cafolini- It is not true that those schools fail the good students.

Neely- Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.

This article seems quite apropos:

http://thecollegevoice.org/2011/11/0...-biggest-flaw/

For every article you find that says that, you find another one that says exactly the opposite, but it's logical that people pay far more attention to bad predictions than good ones. I do not see it your way. As a matter of fact, I see this generation as the brightest ever by far. And that idea that America is doomed is pure propaganda machine. We'll have to wait and see who's correct. But how long do we have to wait? What you are saying has now been heard for over 20 years. Well, we'll see. I give you 20 more.

And please don't make yawn by telling me that I think I'm an expert at everything simply because your expert's interpretation does not coincide with mine.

[Vonny]

And please don't make yawn

Have the predictions already come to pass? Why is it that so many interesting threads have to be closed because of lack of civility? Is brightness even the important thing for making a civilization function?

[cafolini]

Have the predictions already come to pass? Why is it that so many interesting threads have to be closed because of lack of civility? Is brightness even the important thing for making a civilization function?

You could be right. Not necessarily. Could it be civil stomping?

[Vonny]

You could be right. Not necessarily. Could it be civil stomping?

If you watch the movie An Unfinished Life with Robert Redford you'll see an example of a grandfather effectively disciplining his granddaughter without the stomping. I think what he taught the little girl was more important maybe than reading or writing.

Thank you for acknowledging that I could be right.

[Emil Miller]

One piece of hearsay and one photograph...not much of a case.

In 1939 the School leaving Age was 14 so the age group which most people find the most troublesome were not in school but at work if they could get it.

The Thirties is a decade supposedly dominated by poverty, social deprivation and so on, but in fact there were many areas outside the older industrial conurbations where new industries were springing up and unemployment was not the norm...the motor industry in Luton, Bedford and Oxford were examples of this as was the construction industry. The Thirties was also a great period of house building, the development of the suburbs and road building did provide employment for working class boys. and for girls there was still the opportunity of domestic service.

So the profile of the school population in the Thirties is very different to that which exists today. So comparisons of behaviour and attainment then and now are not comparing like with like.

This sub-forum has a history of participants in denial of empirical evidence but if you don't accept what I have posted in this regard, what about Neely's and St Lukesguild or even your own:

"I went back into Supply Teaching for 18 months after 20 years in Higher Ed and I could not believe how hard and stressful it was when compared with my earlier experiences.
What struck me was the fact that the class did not like having to get used to someone else just for a couple of days, and demonstrated this by hostility and often rudeness."

What do you think had happened during those twenty years? Why should pupils be allowed to be hostile and rude to any teacher? When they are in school they should be controlled by whatever means necessary; making excuses for bad behaviour merely encourages it and adds to the problem.
Some teachers might find it useful to build up a relationship with their pupils but it should be one of respect and where it is lacking they should be disciplined by the teacher is in charge.
I know that it isn't like that now, but it should be if we are going to escape the blackboard jungle that is the fate of many comprehensive schools. The alternative is for liberals to carry on in pursuit of their wishful thinking with its correlated self-deception and stay where we are now.

[Drkshadow03]

Can someone please define liberal education policies versus conservative education policies with concrete examples, particularly a handful of them?

[qimissung]

Thank you for asking that question, Drkshadow.

I personally don't think that,in America at least, that the educational system is a product of either the conservatives or the liberals. At the moment, if anything,it is laboring under the "No Child Left Behind" policies instituted by the Bush administration. According to the New York Times :

"The current No Child Left Behind law requires that test scores increase in every school every year, to meet the requirement that 100 percent of students reach proficiency by 2014. According to a new research report, 31,737 of the 98,916 schools missed the law’s testing goals in 2009, vastly more than any level of government can help to improve."

It's a law that was passed with the backing of both parties, but it doesn't seem like it's working, either. Probably because it is quite punitive.

Anyway, the full article is below, as is an article from Wikipedia explaining the law for those folks from other countries who may not know much about it.

School reform is a hot topic here in the states. I'm not sure that I think that schools in general are in such bad shape. Schools in urban areas, though, are not doing well. The problems are myriad. They do require a lot of support that they simply do not get, and then when they don't perform well they are punished; not necessarily a recipe for success, n'est pas?


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...act/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act