I've just started it, and, from reading the thread and what I've read so far, it seems to need a close reading. I might try charting hat he says about the human condition etc, to see if it throws up any patterns, ideas etc.
I've just started it, and, from reading the thread and what I've read so far, it seems to need a close reading. I might try charting hat he says about the human condition etc, to see if it throws up any patterns, ideas etc.
I have also just started this book after finishing up another and I must say that I'm unsure of what to make of the first ten pages or so. Will continue reading and come back to this page once I am done with the book.
I've just started reading it, and I seem to be picking up references to sin. He calls himself a wicked person, without really specifying why, and the only solid aspect we get of him is that he is, or was, a collegiate assessor. Is this a reference to how we denote ourselves; through our jobs?
A little further on I got a strong sense of Lucifer in Paradise Lost. For example he says:
the conscious of good and lofty, the more inclined to deeds unworthy. (paraphrased)
Shameful accursed sweetness reminds me of forbidden fruit being the sweetest.
He then talks of the "pleasure of despair" and being more intelligent than others. Despair is the sin of Lucifer is it not?
I just finished the scene in which the underground man had dinner with zverkov and others and, wow. The narrator really is a low life. I feel pity for him but certainly no sympathy. He seems to cause his own alienation. He begs for friendship in one instance and degrades them the next. After this scene I have really started to despise the narrator. Thoughts? Varying opinions?
I don't know Paul. I've yet to read Paradise Lost (shame on me, I know), so I don't know all of the possible allusions. The famous lines/scene I know fro PL is where Lucifer exclaims (and, also paraphrasing), "Evil, by thy good" when he embraces his evil ways. I can see a lot of that happening in Notes from the Underground.
@ChicagoReader - I never ended up despising him; I felt sorry for him, because he seems to be someone with some real psychological problems that may not be entirely in his control. That isn't to say I liked him, but I definitely enjoyed reading about his horridness (and the dinner scene was definitely one of my favorite parts). He reminds me of a more matured, slightly more unbalanced Holden Caulfield, whom I disliked more than I did Dostoevsky's narrator.
That is a good point, he certainly doesn't seem to have control of himself. Perhaps he does have some mental ailment besides being overly sensitive and having no self esteem. Also, I want to clarify that I am enjoying the read. I still despise the narrator but in a good way, if that makes sense. I agree, the dinner scene has been my favorite so far (I'm on page 75) and the interaction with Liza was also interesting.Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
I've been noticing that it seems that he holds other people's self confidence against them. Almost like he envies everyone but can't admit it to himself. This is the feeling I am getting from him and it's something I can relate to, though no where near to his degree of contempt.
I actually love when I dislike the narrator/main character (to a point--I definitely wouldn't want all my reading to have dislikable characters) in a story. It makes it more interesting.
I can see the allusions to Paradise Lost, but it is written in secular terms. The book I have refers to notes about The Origin of Species and science. Perhaps he represents - with his sceptical attitude - a secular Lucifer rebelling against science. I'm speculating though. I'll have to see if this plays out. I'm not very far on yet.
You're maybe onto something with that Paul. I studied this book in college for a philosophy course on existentialism. I remember the professor focusing on the first half of the novel as a reaction against Enlightenment notions of human rationality and the optimistic utopianism proposed by Marxists and some Utilitarians.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
I adore Dostoevsky, but found both The Double and Notes from Underground somewhat tedious. Both seem rather too didactic and lack the flair of, say, Camus' The stranger. The endings of both leave me decidedly flat. Maybe I read too much existentialist philosophy in my youth.
"Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"
I started reading the fiction quite late. Your post reminded me of a question I had when reading the first chapter: what is a "collegiate assessor"? I didn't find anything relevant on wiki. Can anyone help explain?
Cheers.
Last edited by Drone; 08-24-2011 at 09:11 AM.
I see this fiction the same way as you do. It's a piece of humorous philosophical narrative. But I found more general personal opinions than logical arguments in it.
I did find some interesting remarks, like this one from chpt 7:
One's own free unfettered choice, one's own caprice, however wild it may be, one's own fancy worked up at times to frenzy--is that very "most advantageous advantage" which we have overlooked, which comes under no classification and against which all systems and theories are continually being shattered to atoms. And how do these wiseacres know that man wants a normal, a virtuous choice? What has made them conceive that man must want a rationally advantageous choice? What man wants is simply independent choice, whatever that independence may cost and wherever it may lead. And choice, of course, the devil only knows what choice.
The first idea popping out of my head is that Dostoevsky is uncovering the human beings' want for democratic system in which everyone has the right to vote, that is to make choices. More often than not, it is done by caprice rather than reason. But as long as the voters can make INDEPENDENT choices, they would go for the system. They like the feeling of having the freedom to make choices.
Perhaps I'm going a bit far from what Dostoevsky intended to say. Did anyone have either similar or different response to those last words of chapter 7?
Last edited by Drone; 08-24-2011 at 10:00 AM.
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