The other "Canon"

[lawpark]

Here is a list of some Indian authors of the past centuries. May be it can be of some use.
Rabindranath Tagore - Gitanjali
Prem Chand - Godan, Niramala, and a collection of his short stories.
Muhammad Iqbal - Bang-e-dara, Bal-e-Jibrael, and Zarb-e-Kaleem are great if you know Urdu. As for his Persian works Armagaan-e-hijaz and Ramooz-e-bekhudi are wonderful. If you are going to read a translation than Bang-e-dara would be best.

(You have mentioned them yourself.)

Now some others -

Ghalib- His verses flow like blood in every Indian's vein. He is clearly the most quoted poet in India. Again it would be better if you can read his original work although some good translations are available.
R.K. Narayan- His novel 'The Guide' is one of the most famous Indian novels. Malgudi Days, Bachelor of Arts and The Vendor of Sweets are other good ones. He portrays a realistic picture of south India while Prem Chand presents the culture of North.
Mulk Raj Anand - Untouchable and Coolie are his best works. A messiah of the downtrodden, Anand's novels can sometimes be too didactic. He portrays the deplorable living conditions of the poor all right but rubs his Marxist philosophy quite hard.
Salman Rushdie- He has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
Arundhati Roy - Her novel 'The God of Small Things' is a must read for anyone interested in Indian literature.
Amitav Ghosh - Ghosh is a contemporary author known for his fiction as well as non-fiction. 'The Shadow Lines' ,'The Hungry Tide', and 'Sea of Poppies' are some of his good works.
Arvind Adiga - Probably you have heard his name. His debut novel 'The White Tiger' won the 2008 Booker Prize and justly so.

And now if you want to go back a few centuries then-

Kalidas - Shakuntala
Veda Vyas - Mahabharata
Tulsidas - Ramayana

This is all I could think of now. I hope you don't feel doomed now, if you like to depend upon this list by some one else.

Thanks for your help. Several questions:

Iqbal - is Javednama any good? I am asking because the English translator's name (A.J. Arberry) I recognize (he is a translator of Quran - his version most used in academia I've heard)

Ghalib - he writes ghazals only? Is there a most read / authoritative collection?

Ramayana - interesting that you recommend the Urdu/Hindi version rather than the Sanskrit (Valmiki) version - how much of a difference there is in two versions? Big difference? Small difference?

[mortalterror]

Here's a list I've been working on. It's not finished though.


The Eastern Canon
Various (2400-700BC) Egyptian Book of the Dead
Anonymous (1800BC) Story of Sinuhe
Anonymous (1800BC) Epic of Gilgamesh
Anonymous (1600BC) Enuma Elis
Various (1000-700BC) Book of Odes
Kabti-ilani-Marduk (764BC) Epic of Erra
Vyasa (400BC) Mahabharata
Valmiki (350BC) Ramayana
Qu Yuan (340-278BC) and Song Yu (290-223BC) Chu Ci
Vishnu Sharma (300BC) Panchatantra
Sudraka (150BC) The Little Clay Cart
Various (347-759) Manyoshu
Kalidasa (370-450) Sakuntala and the Ring of Recollection, Meghaduta
Bhartrhari (450) Satakatraya
Various (550) Mu'allaqat
Bharavi (550) Kiratarjuniya
Muhammad (570-632) Quran
Dandin (600) The Adventures of the Ten Princes
Wang Wei (699-759) Poems
Bhavabhuti (700) Málati and Mádhava
Amaru (700) Amarusataka
Li Bai (701-762) Poems
Du Fu (712-770) The Song of the Wagons
Han-shan (730-850) Cold Mountain Poems
Bai Juyi (772-846) Song of Unending Sorrow, Song of the Lute Player
Various (800-920) Kokinshu
Rudaki (858-941) Poems
Various (900-1300) One Thousand and One Nights
Al-Mutanabbi (915-965) Poems
Li Houzhu (937-978) Poems
Ferdowsi (940-1020) Shahnameh
Sei Shonagon (966-1017) The Pillow Book
Murasaki Shikibu (973-1025) Tale of Genji
Nasir Khusraw (1004-1088) Poems
Su Shi (1037-1101) Poems
Omar Khayyam (1048-1131) Rubaiyat
Vidyakara (1050-1130) Treasury of Verses
Moses Ibn Ezra (1055-1138) Diwan
Judah Halevi (1075-1141) Poems
Khaqani (1121-1190) Gift of the Two Iraqs
Anvari (1126-1189) Tears of Khorasan
Nezami (1141-1209) Khamsa
Attar (1145-1221) Conference of the Birds
Kamban (1150) Ramavataram
Sa'di (1184-1283) Gulistan, Bostan
Jayadeva (1200) Gita Govinda
Rumi (1207-1273) Masnavi
Fakhruddin Iraqi (1213-1289) Divine Flashes
Guan Hanqing (1225-1302) Injustice to Dou E
Bai Renfu (1226-1306) Rain on the Paulownia Tree
Wang Shifu (1250-1307) Romance of the Western Chamber
Ma Zhiyuan (1250-1321) Autumn in Han Palace
Amir Khusrau (1253-1325) Second Divan
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350) Essays in Idleness
Shi Nai'an (1296-1372) Water Margin
Gao Zecheng (1305-1368) Romance of the Lute
Hafez (1329-1380) Divan
Luo Guanzhong (1330-1400) Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Ubayd Zakani (d.1370) Ethics of the Aristocrats
Jami (1414-1492) Haft Awrang
Kabir (1440-1518) Songs
Ali-Shir Nava'i (1441-1501) Poetry
Fuzuli (1483-1556) Diwan
Wu Cheng'en (1500-1582) Journey To the West
Baki (1526-1600) Elegy for His Excellency Suleyman Khan
Tulsidas (1532-1623) The Ramcharitmanasa
Tang Xianzu (1550-1616) The Peony Pavilion
Sa'ib (1601-1677) The Campaign Against Qandahar
Lanling Xiaoxiao Sheng (1610) Jin Ping Mei
Pu Songling (1640-1715) Strange Tales From a Chinese Studio
Matsuo Basho (1644-1694) Narrow Road to the Deep North
Chikamatsu Monzaemon (1653-1725) The Battles of Coxinga
Takeda Izumo (1691-1756) Chushingura
Cao Xueqin (1715-1763) Dream of The Red Chamber
Mir Taqi Mir (1723-1810) Ghazals
Nguyen Du (1766-1820) The Tale of Kieu
Mirza Ghalib (1797-1869) Ghazals
Qa'ani (1808-1854) Elegy for Imam Hussein
Rabindranath Tagore (1861-1941) Gitanjali
Natsume Soseki (1867-1916) Kokoro
Muhammad Iqbal (1877-1938) Wings of Gabriel
Lu Xun (1881-1936) Ah Q - The Real Story
Junichiro Tanizaki (1886-1965) The Makioka Sisters
Ryunosuke Akutagawa (1892-1927) The Hell Screen
Yasunari Kawabata (1899-1972) Snow Country
Sadegh Hedayat (1903-1951) The Blind Owl
R.K. Narayan (1906-2001) The Financial Expert
Yukio Mishima (1925-1970) The Sea of Fertility
Adunis (1930-) Mihyar of Damascus: His Songs
V.S. Naipaul (1932-) A House For Mr. Biswas
Salman Rushdie (1947-) Midnight's Children
Haruki Murakami (1949-) The Wind Up Bird Chronicle
Orhan Pamuk (1952-) My Name is Red
Khaled Hosseini (1965-) The Kite Runner

[JBI]

Well, let me propose a question, any takers on some close reading of any of these texts? Yelling about Canon's is one thing, but if there are any takers at actually conquering some of these texts, and of those, anyone who wishes to do it as a discussion, please speak up. As it is, it's cool to jump up and list names, but lets see if we can get a discussion going. I, for instance, would be more than happy finally getting a discussion on something other than classic English novelists or traditional humanist education.


So, let me propose this, any takers? If so, do you think we could have something similar to what goes on in the poetry section?

[Alexander III]

Well, let me propose a question, any takers on some close reading of any of these texts? Yelling about Canon's is one thing, but if there are any takers at actually conquering some of these texts, and of those, anyone who wishes to do it as a discussion, please speak up. As it is, it's cool to jump up and list names, but lets see if we can get a discussion going. I, for instance, would be more than happy finally getting a discussion on something other than classic English novelists or traditional humanist education.


So, let me propose this, any takers? If so, do you think we could have something similar to what goes on in the poetry section?

I would be up for it, so long as the book we select is not a titan, something readable in a short period.

[Paulclem]

Vyasa (400BC) Mahabharata
Valmiki (350BC) Ramayana

These are huge, but the Bhaghavad Gita is quite short, as is Basho's The Narrow Road to The Deep North. Midnight's children is great, as is Orhan Pamuk and Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat.

We could start another thread or propose that the eastern canon be included in the Book Club after the current raft has finished.

It would be good to get the input of those Litnetters from these traditions, or people who have studied them.

[Alexander III]

Another little quibble I have with Eastern cannon - is the inclusion of turkish writers, and even Ottoman ones. The turks have much more in common with the west than they do with China or South east Asia.

[mortalterror]

So, let me propose this, any takers? If so, do you think we could have something similar to what goes on in the poetry section?

Oh, you mean like when a bunch of people who know nothing about the subject ignore every aesthetic aspect of a work and continually harp on the antiquated morality of the time it was written, start debating theology, which they know even less about, complain for several pages about the need for translations, then StLuke posts a bunch of pretty pictures inspired by the work and the whole thread gets derailed into talking about the pictures? Count me in.

[JBI]

Oh, you mean like when a bunch of people who know nothing about the subject ignore every aesthetic aspect of a work and continually harp on the antiquated morality of the time it was written, start debating theology, which they know even less about, complain for several pages about the need for translations, then StLuke posts a bunch of pretty pictures inspired by the work and the whole thread gets derailed into talking about the pictures? Count me in.

Welcome back to the party

[lawpark]

Here's a list I've been working on. It's not finished though.

Various (1000-700BC) Book of Odes
Qu Yuan (340-278BC) and Song Yu (290-223BC) Chu Ci
Wang Wei (699-759) Poems
Li Bai (701-762) Poems
Du Fu (712-770) The Song of the Wagons
Han-shan (730-850) Cold Mountain Poems
Bai Juyi (772-846) Song of Unending Sorrow, Song of the Lute Player
Li Houzhu (937-978) Poems
Su Shi (1037-1101) Poems
Guan Hanqing (1225-1302) Injustice to Dou E
Bai Renfu (1226-1306) Rain on the Paulownia Tree
Wang Shifu (1250-1307) Romance of the Western Chamber
Ma Zhiyuan (1250-1321) Autumn in Han Palace
Gao Zecheng (1305-1368) Romance of the Lute
Luo Guanzhong (1330-1400) Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Wu Cheng'en (1500-1582) Journey To the West
Tang Xianzu (1550-1616) The Peony Pavilion
Lanling Xiaoxiao Sheng (1610) Jin Ping Mei
Pu Songling (1640-1715) Strange Tales From a Chinese Studio
Cao Xueqin (1715-1763) Dream of The Red Chamber
Lu Xun (1881-1936) Ah Q - The Real Story

Looking at this Chinese portion - huge time gap between Chu Ci and Wang Wei ... and quite a bit on the yuan songs / dramas and vernacular novels.
The interesting thing to me, is that your sources' do not like Du Fu (otherwise wouldn't just pick one poem rather than selecting all for Li Bai and Wang Wei). Du Fu is considered the poet in traditional China, though I have to confess that I personally enjoy Wang Wei a lot more than Du Fu. Li Bai clearly has great literary qualities - but somehow the personality that shines through is not as interesting to me. Su Shi is an all-rounded genius ... the literary quality of his work may not be as refined (in my view) as Wang Wei, but Su Shi's intellectual capacity is way broader, and shows a personality that is much easier for Chinese intellectuals to identify with. Li Houzu is good read, but not much works left - and the appreciation of his works intrinsically ties to the fact that he was a king of a polity and his best works were written in captivity. Han Shan poems - more didactic - in my view not very strong (despite it is a different style for sure) literarily speaking. I have interest in Han Shan mostly because he probably wrote from the cultural milieu of a Tiantai (Buddhism) efflorescense that happened in the second half of the 8th century. Bai Juyi is more literary than Han Shan, and the long poems are famous - yet the total of Bai's output are probably less interesting than that of a Su Shi or Wang Wei or Li Bai.

So among the poems portion of the list, my favorites are Wang Wei and Su Shi.

[JCamilo]

Oh, you mean like when a bunch of people who know nothing about the subject ignore every aesthetic aspect of a work and continually harp on the antiquated morality of the time it was written, start debating theology, which they know even less about, complain for several pages about the need for translations, then StLuke posts a bunch of pretty pictures inspired by the work and the whole thread gets derailed into talking about the pictures? Count me in.

So, you think when Stlukes starts to post pics is because he is trolling?

[mortalterror]

The interesting thing to me, is that your sources' do not like Du Fu (otherwise wouldn't just pick one poem rather than selecting all for Li Bai and Wang Wei). Du Fu is considered the poet in traditional China, though I have to confess that I personally enjoy Wang Wei a lot more than Du Fu.

I know that. It's just that is my favorite of his poems. Where I suggest that someone read all of a given author's poems it is because I'm not as familiar with their work and couldn't single one out.

So, you think when Stlukes starts to post pics is because he is trolling?

It's not that he's trolling. It's more like his artistic sensibilities are those of a painter. It's his training, his comfort zone, which he frequently falls back on, rather than coming at a text from a more literary angle such as JBI would choose, or from a historical angle like perhaps Petrarch's love might adopt, or even from a psychological one such as Virgil might use. Those are all valid methods of analysis. Stluke just happens to think in pictures, and when he shares his thoughts he's a bit of a show off. It's not his fault that people are idiots who get distracted by shiny things and then can't remember what they are there for.

[aliengirl]

Thanks for your help. Several questions:

Iqbal - is Javednama any good? I am asking because the English translator's name (A.J. Arberry) I recognize (he is a translator of Quran - his version most used in academia I've heard)

Ghalib - he writes ghazals only? Is there a most read / authoritative collection?

Ramayana - interesting that you recommend the Urdu/Hindi version rather than the Sanskrit (Valmiki) version - how much of a difference there is in two versions? Big difference? Small difference?

Welcome. It seems that you are acquainted with Indian writers, even those who do not write in English. If you know Urdu/Hindi then you are at a vantage point. Now for your questions:

Iqbal - I forgot to mention Javednama perhaps because I've not read it. I've mentioned only those books (or authors) whom I've read. Iqbal is not called 'the Poet of the East' for nothing. All of his works are splendid. If Javednama is available then go for it.

Ghalib- You're right that he wrote only ghazal but his creativity was not limited to it. His personal letters have been collected and published in two voulmes - Aud-e-Hindi and Urdu-e-Mua'lla. They are considered classics in their own field and are widely read. The authoritative collection of poetry is called Diwan-e-Ghalib which is available in translations.

Ramayana - To tell you the truth I've not read the original Ramayana by Tulsidas (for it is written in Awadhi) or by Valmiki. I've read its modern Hindi version. But I don't think that there is any basic plot difference between Valmiki's Ramayana and that of Tulsidas.

[JBI]

Looking at this Chinese portion - huge time gap between Chu Ci and Wang Wei ... and quite a bit on the yuan songs / dramas and vernacular novels.
The interesting thing to me, is that your sources' do not like Du Fu (otherwise wouldn't just pick one poem rather than selecting all for Li Bai and Wang Wei). Du Fu is considered the poet in traditional China, though I have to confess that I personally enjoy Wang Wei a lot more than Du Fu. Li Bai clearly has great literary qualities - but somehow the personality that shines through is not as interesting to me. Su Shi is an all-rounded genius ... the literary quality of his work may not be as refined (in my view) as Wang Wei, but Su Shi's intellectual capacity is way broader, and shows a personality that is much easier for Chinese intellectuals to identify with. Li Houzu is good read, but not much works left - and the appreciation of his works intrinsically ties to the fact that he was a king of a polity and his best works were written in captivity. Han Shan poems - more didactic - in my view not very strong (despite it is a different style for sure) literarily speaking. I have interest in Han Shan mostly because he probably wrote from the cultural milieu of a Tiantai (Buddhism) efflorescense that happened in the second half of the 8th century. Bai Juyi is more literary than Han Shan, and the long poems are famous - yet the total of Bai's output are probably less interesting than that of a Su Shi or Wang Wei or Li Bai.

So among the poems portion of the list, my favorites are Wang Wei and Su Shi.

As for who is the greater poet, Du Fu or Li Bai, that is such a Western debate - both are so different, and so incredible, that such comparisons are not necessary - it is more interesting to feel how they both reacted and experienced a rather turbulent time period completely differently.

On another note, Li Bai does it for me far more - reading his poems (in Chinese) gives a feeling unlike any other - he seems like a wizard almost, so simple, but so magical, with such a nuanced understanding of layering and subtle associative elements.

As for the debate, it is rather pointless, different poets speak to different audiences, I still like Du Fu, but I generally am far more enthralled by the more romantic poems of the Chinese tradition then the rhetorical artwork and realism of the more dense poets - satirical poetry doesn't do it for me much either, which is what the Shi eventually ended up as because of the dominance of such tropes.

As for Ci poets - with the exception of Su Shi, most are underrepresented in English - I am not even sure such basic anthologies such as 300 Song Ci even have been translated.

Still, if I needed to choose, with the exception of a half dozen or so Su Shi poems I absolutely love, I tend to find the more romantic Liu Yong or Li Qingzhao far more interesting - no doubt he was a great mind, and no doubt an excellent artist in almost every field, but something in much of his (Su Shi's) poetry feels contrived to me, as if he is pretending, and not well. All poets lie of course, but it feels weird to not believe it for the duration of the poem.


As for pre-tang poets - well, with the exception of a few translations, the bulk remain rather unheard of. Buddhist studies did great works with some buddhist poets, but in general, they started with Tang writers. With the exception of Confucius, Qu Yuan, and Tao Yuanming very little is available in English from the early poets (to my knowledge) and much less are focused. I am unaware of a translation of much of the poems from the Han through Sui, and have only found one really good translation of such seminal poems as 孔雀东南飞 which was buried at the top of an essay in a literary journal from I believe the 70's.

Post-Tang and especially post-Song has not done much better, in fact, up until contemporary poetry there is roughly no representation in translation. Arguably, Chinese people themselves seem to prefer Tang and Song poetry above all else, but still it would be nice to at least have some awareness.


Still, prose is far less represented with the exception of novels. The 8 Neo-Classical masters have been translated forever (in a rather nice bilingual text) but are still more or less unread. Still, it would be nice if more simple prose works, like the well translated poet Tao Yuanming's great prose work 桃花源记 (peach blossom source record) which provides an interesting contrast to something like More's Utopia, and might as well be discussed along side it.

The whole tradition of 散文 seems to be neglected in terms of Western readership. I think this is primarily because Western readers do not like prose artwork, even their own.


That's the biggest problem, genre - most readers only are looking for some Zen 3rd age nonsense, or for novels. The more subtle arts are all lost on people not looking for them. To me reading Wang Wei as a "Buddhist poet" and searching for his buddhist secrets is rather cheap since, though Buddhism is central to his thought, he is still writing poetics, and should be enjoyed in that respect too - he is somehow greater and more dynamic, less easily pinned down, but alas, he is reduced, like how they tried to reduce Li Bai and Du Fu, but failed since those are far more chaotic poets.

[lawpark]

Welcome. It seems that you are acquainted with Indian writers, even those who do not write in English. If you know Urdu/Hindi then you are at a vantage point. Now for your questions:

Iqbal - I forgot to mention Javednama perhaps because I've not read it. I've mentioned only those books (or authors) whom I've read. Iqbal is not called 'the Poet of the East' for nothing. All of his works are splendid. If Javednama is available then go for it.

Ghalib- You're right that he wrote only ghazal but his creativity was not limited to it. His personal letters have been collected and published in two voulmes - Aud-e-Hindi and Urdu-e-Mua'lla. They are considered classics in their own field and are widely read. The authoritative collection of poetry is called Diwan-e-Ghalib which is available in translations.

Ramayana - To tell you the truth I've not read the original Ramayana by Tulsidas (for it is written in Awadhi) or by Valmiki. I've read its modern Hindi version. But I don't think that there is any basic plot difference between Valmiki's Ramayana and that of Tulsidas.

I am only "acquainted" to the extent I read some introductory essays to Indian literature ... tried to learn Sanskrit in college - dropped out after one quarter; tried pick up Hindi / Urdu in my late 20's - did not move beyond the first few lessons; now consider myself too old to learn Hindi / Urdu.

Some findings from my "sniffing around":

Site on Iqbal - translated version of Javednama is online free
http://www.allamaiqbal.com/

Looks like this is a good Ghalib book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019...A21P482E31ZZ9P

Was writing blog as just my own notes on my "sniffing around" on Indian Literature lists I have been reading:
http://lawpark.jimdo.com/2011/08/21/...an-literature/

[lawpark]

As for who is the greater poet, Du Fu or Li Bai, that is such a Western debate - both are so different, and so incredible, that such comparisons are not necessary - it is more interesting to feel how they both reacted and experienced a rather turbulent time period completely differently.

Agree with you on your sentiment, but have to add that it was actually a huge debate within the Chinese tradition - pick up any Shi Hua (诗话) ("Discussions on Poetry") and loads and loads of comments about Li vs. Du, Su vs. Huang ... pretty amazing.

On another note, Li Bai does it for me far more - reading his poems (in Chinese) gives a feeling unlike any other - he seems like a wizard almost, so simple, but so magical, with such a nuanced understanding of layering and subtle associative elements.

Agreed. Li also does more for me. In fact, I would say, somehow Du just does not work for me most of the time. Even many of those selected in "300 Tang Poems" does not work for me.

Still, if I needed to choose, with the exception of a half dozen or so Su Shi poems I absolutely love, I tend to find the more romantic Liu Yong or Li Qingzhao far more interesting - no doubt he was a great mind, and no doubt an excellent artist in almost every field, but something in much of his (Su Shi's) poetry feels contrived to me, as if he is pretending, and not well. All poets lie of course, but it feels weird to not believe it for the duration of the poem.

About whether Su Shi is pretending ... ultimately one needs to decide for oneself. After reading some famous shi or ci many times, I have to say sometimes I have to say I have the same feeling ... e.g. 莫听穿林打雨声. If one believe his "innocense" - also well attested by contemporary accounts, it is great; but if one sees him as a celebrity (he was a celebrity back then), it is harder to say.

As for pre-tang poets - well, with the exception of a few translations, the bulk remain rather unheard of. Buddhist studies did great works with some buddhist poets, but in general, they started with Tang writers. With the exception of Confucius, Qu Yuan, and Tao Yuanming very little is available in English from the early poets (to my knowledge) and much less are focused. I am unaware of a translation of much of the poems from the Han through Sui, and have only found one really good translation of such seminal poems as 孔雀东南飞 which was buried at the top of an essay in a literary journal from I believe the 70's.

I believe many of these issues are with the current Chinese view of its own tradition - yes, except for Tao Yuanming and the 19 Gu Shi - the other works are really not as central to the Chinese canon (at least as it is represented in curriculums and popular writings). I used to have a complaint (still does) that the poetic prose (the 4-6 style prose) and Buddhist writings wasn't really taught to me in high school - thus making things much harder to understand. I personally spent probably a decade on getting myself literate on Buddhist writings; can't say I have done the same for poetic prose - which often still puzzles me.

Still, prose is far less represented with the exception of novels. The 8 Neo-Classical masters have been translated forever (in a rather nice bilingual text) but are still more or less unread. Still, it would be nice if more simple prose works, like the well translated poet Tao Yuanming's great prose work 桃花源记 (peach blossom source record) which provides an interesting contrast to something like More's Utopia, and might as well be discussed along side it

The 8 Masters ... I heard someone say (I kinda believe) that those masters are actually important thinkers that somehow cannot fit in with the Zhu Xi Neo-Confucian Orthodoxy, and the "8 masters" is a good way for the tradition to remember these 8 guys - well, since they are not Zhu Xi type, instead of thinkers / philosophers, let's call them literati, as they themselves believe in "use of literature to carry the message / Way". The 3 Su's are hated by Zhu Xi, but no one wants to throw them away. Wang An Shi was even hated by more people because of politics, but he was a great personality that people also don't want to forget.

The whole tradition of 散文 seems to be neglected in terms of Western readership. I think this is primarily because Western readers do not like prose artwork, even their own.

Interesting observation - Bacon and Montaigne are probably canonical writers in name only, that is not much read. As elsewhere poetry is more reputable ... but as the Western tradition changes language a few times, and as it is much harder to translate poetry (especially short lyrical poetry) across languages, the tradition I think gives a lot more weight to Epics and Drama (still has a story and structure, but also non-prose) over other forms.

That's the biggest problem, genre - most readers only are looking for some Zen 3rd age nonsense, or for novels. The more subtle arts are all lost on people not looking for them. To me reading Wang Wei as a "Buddhist poet" and searching for his buddhist secrets is rather cheap since, though Buddhism is central to his thought, he is still writing poetics, and should be enjoyed in that respect too - he is somehow greater and more dynamic, less easily pinned down, but alas, he is reduced, like how they tried to reduce Li Bai and Du Fu, but failed since those are far more chaotic poets.

Cannot agree more - and in any case I feel people are actually confused by the artistic stage Wang Wei portrays and confuses that with Zen enlightenment - they have similarity but are distinct. In that, I personally subscribe to distinction made by Mou Zong-san.

If you are truly interested. My view on a Chinese forum (#302-309)
http://www.pkucn.com/viewthread.php?...extra=&page=21