Sleepywitch, while I recognize you're responding directly to Bien's comments, I would like to point out that not all religions are focused on the afterlife or think this life is bad. Judaism is a classic example of a religion that values this life more than it puts any emphasis on an afterlife.Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 08-08-2011 at 05:15 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
I think we are in a very good position in many countries today. The development of pain relief, for example, has had a great effect upon the quality of many people's lives. In the UK, the NHS is free, so most maladies can be reasonably dealt with. People are living longer. I think the latest is that 1/4 of the people born today in the UK will live to 100 or more. Work in the home and in industry is not a crushing fatigue. We have free education, and oportunities that virtually none of our ancestors ever had. I'm from the working class/ underclass, but I have been to university and become a professional. The food is generally good, and hygiene standards mean it doesn't kill us as often as it probably did. We have holidays and leisure to pursue our interests and broaden our minds.
You're right, Sleepywitch. Life is not so bad for us - now.
Here's the Buddhist take on it though. Unfortunately, all the good things will come to pass. We will live longer, but instead of dying of the diseases our ancestors did, we will succumb to cancer, heart failure etc etc. Our longevity may merely mean that we prolong the unproductive and reliant period of our lives. Our wealth could change at any time. Who knows where the credit problems will leave us? With no jobs and mass demonstrations/ civil unrest etc etc. No-one knows if war will erupt again in Europe. will unemploymet and racial tensions from economic migration cause it? I hope not, but nothing is ultimately certain.Today's stability could turn into tomorrow's chaos.
On a personal level, it can be easy to make assumptions about our stability. But are partners trustworthy? is our health stable. Are our family members ok? Lots of bad things can happen, and can affect our happiness, personal stability and mental health.
So what does Buddhism offer to us in a situation that could go either way?
It offers the opportunity to study the mind and gain a certain control over it. It has methods for reducing anger - which might erupt in the face of negative conditions - it puts problems into perspective by offering methods to calm the mind and reflect skillfully upon the things life throws at us.
Of course this is on a mundane and personal level. The Buddha's path also offers full Elightenment. This is because the world we live in is seen as being full of suffering. This is not to say that we can't enjoy the good conditions we have now, but the rather radical view is that any current happiness merely increases our attachment, our clinging to certain conditions which causes us great pain. For example our next door neighbour is becoming increasingly incapable of looking after himself after living in the same house for fifty years or so. ow will he feel about having to go and live in a nursing home? The greatest attachment is, of course life ended by our death. We don't think of it when we're young, but in fact the reality of it - the utter finality of it, it is said, doesn't really hit a person until close to the end. All the reflections such as - what did I do with my life, has it been well lived, why didn't I do this that etc etc will come back to haunt us if in fact we haven't lived well.
So the path offers a preparation for death too - death is a reality which may mean we miss our next meal if we are really unlucky.
But more than this, the path offers a way to live a good - even skillful life that will carry a being on into a positive future rebirth as a human rather than an animal or worse. This is the aspect of Buddhism that posits Karma and reincarnation at its core. It teaches that actually feathering your own nest at the expense of others - due to karma - leads to more suffering. it teaches that compassion and empathy actually pay, and that our more positive aspects are not only good for us as an individual, but for society.
I hope you don't think I'm preaching, but this is the rather inadequate explanation of the Buddhist view. A way of coping with inevitable suffering and ultimately escaping it.
The religious do not value life, the religious value eternity.
Are you referring to the Christian groups mentioned earlier? It really has no meaning in the context of eastern religions.
Very little of what G L Wilson says has meaning outside of the context of his own head, but anyway, like I already noted it doesn't really much make sense in relationship to Judaism either. It mostly speaks to Christianity and Islam, I would think. And even then, I don't think the statement is true. I know plenty of Christians and Muslims who have a zest for life and their families and whatnot.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
Yes - I do too.
I just don't want to be despised by a large group of people. In the churches I went to growing up (more than ten), the major mission was to convert non-believers, to save them from eternal damnation. When people learn that I don't want to be converted, the reaction is sadness or anger. I don't want to feel that directed at me. I don't want it directed at others. I hope there will be a shift in my country toward love and acceptance.
I can understand that. I have never pushed others to believe my views, but I would like people to respect my views. I do defend my own beliefs though.
It seems that we both want the same thing. I want to be liked and accepted, but when people imply that if I believe in God and creation then I must be unintelligent or crazy, it seems that they are doing to me exactly what you don't want to be done to you.
Does that make sense?
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Generally speaking, all religions dismiss life as corrupt and without value but it is really religion that is corrupt and without value.
This statement is totally untrue.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
That is your belief, not mine.
I would think that is what most people want, religious or otherwise.
Don't bother. He is just repeating the same comments that were already challenged and discredited by subsequent comments and hoping if he repeats himself multiples time it will somehow become true. His comment is a textbook Strawman. He is making a claim about ALL religions (in general), despite three people from three different religions in this thread saying that they don't see the world like that. Like I said earlier, "Very little of what G L Wilson says has meaning outside of the context of his own head." This continues to prove the rule.
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 08-08-2011 at 07:03 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
I agree, but I can't say I'll ever support theism being taught to secular kids in public elementary schools, or religion in general becoming too much a part of government. That being said, it comes into question why I can't or won't just abandon my education and philosophies and embrace Christianity as the ONE true answer to life's problems. My answers are not well received.
I think at this point I know where you stand, and you know where I stand, so we can reach a peaceful accord. For that reason, I am glad we have had this discussion. Unfortunately, my family and friends will never feel the empathy that you and I have managed to feel. Baby steps to progress, as they say.
What exactly are we moving towards, peace and understanding? Give me a break! There is no peace with them, they only understand war.
G L, at some point the argument becomes a waste of energy. If atheists ever start their own country, I'll be right there. America doesn't work for me. I need to surround myself with like-minded people. At this point, I have nothing more to contribute to the conversation here. I still appreciate the poetry and creative works of the opponents of my philosophies, so in the interest of continuing to enjoy these forums, I'm exiting on a happy nice note. Peace is not the same as complacency, do not imagine my principles have changed.
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