You come at me with Paul? Read on in Romans and see what there is to find. Nonetheless, Heaven is poorly populated. As Nietzsche said, "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing." There will be a lot of good people down in hell, why should I be afraid to go there?Originally Posted by Ecurb
i don;t believe that's the message of the Bible.
yes, righteousness is req'd.
no, we aren't righteous.
yes, Jesus was.
we get in, therefore, through Him.
no, we still aren't righteous.
this would be considered the christian belief in a nutshell, yes?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
No, the Christian belief is that we are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other way into Heaven. The Catholics are wrong; even if the texts contradict, where is the Good in error? Nowhere, I say.
GL, "the Catholic's are wrong" was thrown in quite randomly in my opinion. care to explain how that relates? i agree with your statement, but perhaps for different reasons...
i believe that what you say concerning the christian belief is true, but it is held that we are considered righteous, seen righteous, by accepting Christ's sacrifice. that still doesn't make us righteous. correct?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
Catholicism attains that salvation by good works is possible. The doctrine is either incorrect or not depending on your point of view.
I would say so but I am not sure.
We're obviously talking about different levels of understanding then. You're talking about some level that no-one can understand - yes? So, we're back to my thing about believers citing the unknowable ineffableness of the mind of God.
And, as I say, if this question of God's judgement does encompass a level of understanding that's beyond us, then God has broken a very fundamental rule of natural justice, which is that the judged should be able to understand the system of justice by which they are being judged. They shouldn't have to simply take on trust that it's fair.
If, on the other hand, you're saying that the very idea of God is beyond us all, then, again, I think God is being capricious. Having created children who are incapable of comprehending him, he has no one to blame but himself if they don't get it. If I were a bright orange god who smelled strongly of celery, it'd be pretty unsporting of me to create blind creatures with no noses, and then to blame them for not being able to find me.
...celery...
My creation's got no nose.
Oh really? How does it smell? ...
I was Catholic the first 7 years of my life. I went to church every Sunday. My father was Catholic, and my mother was Protestant, so it was confusing. My mother contradicted the Catholic teachings to us. Still, I went to church every Sunday. My father was a very violent person; he tortured us in various ways. I remember one day, my father told me that God watched me all the time, that He could always see me. I remember saying in amazement, "He sees me now? Right now?" My father said "yes." I never understood too much about God or the church or anything, but I understood that God was watching me.
So, as I got older, I wondered, "Why didn't God ever speak to me, a small child?" He spoke to Moses in a burning bush. So why wouldn't He speak to a child who was terrified and in pain? I can see if He had given my father free-will, then maybe He wouldn't want to step in and interfere, but why not just speak and explain to me that although my father was being allowed to do what he did, it wasn't right, and that we children didn't deserve what we were getting, that God didn't approve, and that there would be a light on the other side for us. But we were just left in a very deep, very black hole.
God's love is supposed to be greater than any human love. I, as a human, couldn't stand by and just watch a child or animal suffer and do nothing, not even speak to him/her/it. So I don't know if there is some concept here that is so BIG I simply can't understand it. It's for sure that if there is a concept, I don't understand it. But I try to have an open mind about God, and just say that I don't know. I think whatever God is, we can never understand it with our human brains.
[QUOTE=G L Wilson;1054852]Catholicism attains that salvation by good works is possible. The doctrine is either incorrect or not depending on your point of view.
[QUOTE]
is that really a belief held by all Catholics or only a select few? does it even make sense for one to be saved by good works? due to varying definitions of "good works," salvation would never be assured.
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
did you pick one belief to follow or no?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
Well, my father left us and we automatically defaulted to my mother's Protestant side. The Catholic part is definitely gone along with my father and godparents, all who vanished.
I'm beginning to realize lately that I've never really chosen anything for myself. But I don't go to church anymore, mainly because churches give me anxiety.
It's funny that Scripture still has an emotional pull on me, so I'm unable to call myself an Atheist.
have you ever explored catholicism for yourself?
i have recently begun to do so.
while i disagree with much of the doctrine, the aura/reverence and mysticism of the catholic church absolutely has it's pull on me...
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
It's funny you mention this because those qualities pull me, too. I absolutely hate the new-age crap that so many other churches have turned into. A young woman I know who goes to Catholic church said that if you look around at the congregation, just about every single head in there is gray. That appeals to me. I love the traditions. Another thing I love about Catholic church is Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, and the old-fashioned Christmas carols! I have still gone to Midnight Mass several times over the years with friends.
And then several years ago I was able to visit Mount Angel Abbey in Oregon. It was really beautiful, and listening to the monks sing Vespers was really nice, better than taking a tranquilizer!
It's possible that I could get sucked back into Catholic church, but right now I don't have time!
The only other problem is that I don't like their bible. I like the King James version.
in my opinion, protestant churches have become dangerously casual. i don't believe that one should be judged by what they wear or believe or give during church, but it could be said that those who practice the catholic faith may take it more seriously than their protestant counterparts. this may be due, in part, to their belief that salvation is not given, it is earned by works. there also seems to be unity of belief among catholics. the catechism gives pretty much a guideline for living. though protestants would hold that the Bible itself is their guideline, the differing translations provide discord amongst those in the same church family. while there are THOUSANDS of protestant denominations, catholicism only exhibits two (if i understand correctly). there must be a reason for this unity...
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav地 of Hell, a Hell of Heav地"
"There must be a reason for this unity."
Sure, superstition.
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