I hear at the gates of hell you're given an accordian instead of a harp. Now that would be tortuous!
I hear at the gates of hell you're given an accordian instead of a harp. Now that would be tortuous!
Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb
The animals too?Originally Posted by Panglossian
Actually, in respects to the animals, they do not have eternal souls. Once the flesh is dead, the creature returns to the dirt and is no more. However, in respects to mankind, as Christianity goes, it is believed that man (mankind) was created in the image of God with a soul (spirit) that lives on after the body dies. The concept of heaven is best explained as being in existence with God. God cannot be in union with that that has been corrupted by sin. It is against His nature and character. Therefore, He has provided a way that man can be free from his sin, and that is by the atonement of Christ. There are those who have not been corrupted by sin (i.e. children, and those who have not for various reasons come to the understanding of good and evil...mentally handicapped for instance). If one has obtained the cleansing from sin, then it is possible (not just possible, but assured) that he/she can be united with God (who is the source of spiritual life). I believe that the union with God after this physical life is done is heaven. I also believe that one who is not in that union will be completely separated from God, which is hell...a complete absence from God.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Thanks Bienvenu. I thought that was the case, but your answer has extended my understanding of Christian thought.
It's one of the problems I have with Christian concepts of creation, and the relationship of humans to animals to God etc. I appreciate that a Christian could see an animal as an expression of creation or God's work.
For myself, I don't see a lot of difference between animals and humans except in their various capacities for thought.
To be fair, that's only one thread of Christian thought. There are others, including the Catholic notion of Original Sin, which suggests that all human beings are born corrupt. That one was dominant for the best part of two thousand years. It's still pretty widespread.
I rather like the idea that the Godless will be punished by being permitted to persist in their Godlessness. My concern is that such a construct is more likely Man's idea than God's, as God has not thus far demonstrated a talent for that kind of irony.
Last edited by MarkBastable; 07-18-2011 at 05:17 AM.
What about the souls of all who died before Christ's sojourn to Earth 2,000 years ago?
God may be good and omni-benevolent, but in the bible he is also just and wise, you cannot exalt God to one attribute and say that is all he is, that is problematic theology. Since God has all possible knowledge he can let sin run its course he also has the power to turn a negative into a positive.
Panglossian- Yes, they will go to hell for rejecting God's offer. Sin has to be punished, but God loved the world so much that he sent his one and only son so that they might be saved, if those groups you say don't believe in Jesus then they won't be saved that is the reality. It is not all about religion or your beliefs, Jesus came not to start a new religion, but show the true reality, a relationship with the one true living God through him.
I don't know. God sent his only son? That's a joke. So what, he was crucified and then he died and now he's in heaven but in the end Jesus is only one guy! He may be the big man's only son but he is still one guy. What about the suffering the rest of us endures? What about the suffering endured by those affected by religious war or conflict? And all those people who came before Jesus, they're all going to hell!? How is that fair?
"Oh oops, I forget about them," says God.
And what is original sin again? Wasn't that when Adam decided to eat an apple in the Garden of Eden or something? And now we have to suffer for all eternity unless we pass some sort of entrance examination? What exactly is sin? What is Adam eating an apple supposed to symbolize? Aren't apples supposed to be good for you?
Why doe's God choose to lump us into one big group when we are individuals who cannot be expected to take responsibility for the actions of others?
My original question everyone tried to ignore or didn't notice: What about wars? Are we allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God? Are we allowed to fight in God's name?
Last edited by thebagman; 07-18-2011 at 09:24 AM.
Absolutely no. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Straight from the horse's mouth.
Then why do we do it? Almost all the time?
So let's take the ancient Indian religion of Jainism - a non-violent, pacifist religion - all the thousands and thousands of "Jains" who have died over the last 10,000 years are now suffering in Hell just so the so-called true God can prove a point. That's a bit unfair, isn't it? Not to mention diabolical.
I would say that Christians who fight wars in the name of God are fakes.
Given that the commandment doesn't say 'Thou shalt not kill in the name of God', but simply 'Thou shalt not kill', one could argue that Christians who fight in any war are fakes.
Mark, this idea of "original sin." care to explain?
as i understand it, the catholic church holds that humans are born with sin because adam and eve sinned. we are therefore destined to hell unless we can be cleansed of all sin, including the separate, original sin. original sin is only forgiven if one is baptized by the catholic church. yes?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n"
another confusion about christians and killing.
Moses came down from the mt with the 10 big ones, one of which states "though shalt not kill."
God later told His people, those same people, to overtake certain lands. this was done by God's people killing... what?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n"
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